Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)

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RfC on inclusion of lab-accident theory of Covid origin[edit]

There is an Rfc at Talk:COVID-19_pandemic#RfC_on_inclusion_of_lab-accident_theory regarding the inclusion of the lab-accident theory to the Cause section of the article on Covid-19 pandemic. A dozen editors have vigorously participated over many weeks reaching no consensus or anything resembling one.

I request that external editors comment on whether we should omit any mention of the theory.

Please take a look at the Rfc to help us reach a consensus.Forich (talk) 12:46, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

"You can help by expanding it" needs to go[edit]

Not sure if it's been brought up before but I created a discussion here: Template_talk:Incomplete_list#Request_to_remove_"you_can_help_by_expanding_it"--Prisencolin (talk) 23:25, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Moving a page from article space to draft space[edit]

On 19 May user:Flalf moved Baron Cobham to Draft:Baron Cobham. On 25 May I moved it back into Article space.

My primary reason for doing this is because a redirect existed from article space to draft space and this is clearly inappropriate. Rather than delete the redirect I decided to return the article to the status quo, and opend this discussion here.

This article was created on 27 July 2019 by user:GorgonaJS there have been about a score of edits by half a dozen editors of whom user:Alekksandr and user:Lobsterthermidor are the most prolific (revision history).

What is the guidance on moving articles from article space? Is it appropriate to make such a move without attempting to gain a consensus, for example by using Wikipedia:Requested moves?

-- PBS (talk) 07:49, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Some further information: This specific article has a deleted history in Draft:Baron Cobham. An earlier version of this article was moved from article space to draft space without leaving a redirect behind by user:I dream of horses on 26 April 2019 with the comment "Undersourced, incubate in draftspace". In addition that article suffered persistent attack by sockpuppets of User:G.-M. Cupertino -- PBS (talk) 08:03, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Hello PBS! Thank you for bringing this up. Despite being an article that is lengthy, I don't think it is appropriately written. It fails Wikipedia:Manuel of Style and after discussing it with a few other editors we came to the conclusion the page would have to be redone and until then would be best left to incubate in draft space. I did not think there would be a need for a request as I didn't think the move would be controversial. Per WP:MOVE I thought it was more fit for the draftspace. FlalfTalk 08:00, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Please provide a link to your discussion about what to do with the article. What part of WP:MOVE do you think covers this type of move? -- PBS (talk) 08:08, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
PBS, WP:MOVE is not a policy nor guideline; it's a how-to guide per the template at the top of the page. I'm not sure why Flalf cited that as a reason to move a page; perhaps they meant another page that does describe page move policy.
Current consensus allows editors to move articles to draftspace if they feel it's not ready to be allowed to remain in mainspace. The reasoning behind this is that the alternative is frequently deletion, which is even more confronting. I dream of horses (talk page) (Contribs) Remember to notify me after replying off my talk page. 10:45, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
@User:I dream of horses It is not good practice to link from article space into other spaces (such as user space or draft space). I mentioned WP:MOVE only because User:flalf stated "Per WP:MOVE I thought it was more fit for the draftspace". I think that WP:EDIT is a relevant policy. -- PBS (talk) 10:56, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
PBS, if moving articles into draftspace helps us comply with the spirit of don't bite the newcomers and other civility policies by avoiding a deletion discussion, but the letter of WP:EDIT prevents us from doing so, then "ignore all rules" would apply.
But, then again, "This article is imperfect!" isn't what motivates me to move an article into draftspace. It's "This article has at least a minute amount of potential (that is, speedy deletion isn't advisable), but it absolutely shouldn't remain in mainspace". The alternative is often an AfD discussion. An imperfect, "mainspacable" article might get some cleanup, or otherwise get cleanup templates, and possibly a stub tag. A "perfect" article, for lack of a better term, gets a nomination at autopatrolled. I personally don't expect a new article to be perfect; therefore, I believe my new page patrolling is WP:EDIT complaint. I dream of horses (talk page) (Contribs) Remember to notify me after replying off my talk page. 11:08, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
WP:Drafts#During new page review and WP:Drafts#Requirements for page movers make interesting reading. I haven't looked at the page in question here, but my experience has been that new page patrollers, who are often less acquainted with Wikipedia norms than the people who have written the articles that they are passing judgement on, frequently move pages to draft space and refuse to move them back in defiance of those sections. The claim made at WP:Drafts#Moving articles to draft space that moving to draft space is not a backdoor route to deletion is clearly false, given that drafts get deleted after 6 months without proper checking if they are about notable topics. Phil Bridger (talk) 11:47, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
If an article is moved to draft without a RM and someone objects to the move, then AFAICT they can are free to move it back under the WP:RMUM process (a process designed to prevent move wars and first move advantage). -- PBS (talk) 17:02, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
The move was improper since draftifying is really only for brand new articles with severe problems. I do have some concerns about the lack of oversight when it comes to draftifications, I would encourage admins to take a look at the articles in question before deleting the leftover redirects. I have on several occasions (usually by chance) come across draftifications of ten year old articles, where a relatively new editor has just assumed that imperfect articles need to be moved to drafts. – Thjarkur (talk) 12:23, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
I apologize if it was improper. At the time I didn't think the article belonged in mainspace. If that was a mistake, then I'm sorry. I made an error in judgement and I won't do it again. I'm so sorry. FlalfTalk 17:43, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Inviting DGG into this conversation, as he and I both occasionally move mainspace pages to draftspace for repair. BD2412 T 16:09, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Howdy hello folks! Flalf is one of my adoptees, and asked if I could take a look here, they were understandably stressed about being the subject of a VP discussion. If I'm reading things right, this is more of a general policy discussion, and less of a contributor discussion, correct? Flalf's actions seem merely to have been the catalyst of a policy question, which is why I assume its at the pump. Otherwise, I would expect that this would have been discussed with Flalf on their talk, or at ANI, am I right? CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n! 18:14, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
    • Yes, the broad question is, "when is it appropriate to move an article to draft space?" BD2412 T 19:28, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
    • Indeed, sorry to see this disussion presented this way, Flalf, and I hope I didn't sound like I was scolding you.
      I once ran a Quarry query to find draftifications of old articles, there was an improper one about every other day. All were meant in good faith, but could have lead to unintentional loss of content since nobody noticed them. (This is the Quarry query, for some reason it's timing out for me now, maybe someone can see what I'm doing wrong). Maybe we should consider an editfilter warning for when old articles are being moved into other namespaces, that would also catch all these student editors moving established articles into their userspace to work on them. – Thjarkur (talk) 21:52, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
      Here you go. —Cryptic 10:49, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

@User:flalf and User:CaptainEek as User:BD2412 and User:Þjarkur imply I started the conversation here is to review this area in general and more specifically to review my actions rather than flalf's. I am a very experianced editor, but this is the first time I have reverted such a move. If found during this conversation that I was in breach of some guidence somewhere, then I would revert my revert, and then ask if that guidence was sensible. As an administrator I could have removed the link left behind in article space and I would have done so if I could have found guidance on that (it may exist for all I know) and then started this conversation.

flalf my reason for asking you how you came to your decision is not to criticise you, but to try to understand how you came to the decision to move this article into draft space.

I would also like so someone with more familiarity with this area to explain what is usually done with the redirects left behind after such a move and if is it documented.

-- PBS (talk) 09:50, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Another area that needs thinking about which is thrown up by this particular article (Baron Cobham), is that moving an article with an edit history to drafts name space may inadvertently create a copy violation as happens with cut and past moves. This article was moved to drafts on 26 April 2019 and deleted on 27 October 2019 (six months and a day later) with the comment "Abandoned draft or Articles for Creation submission – to retrieve it, see WP:REFUND/G13" it had an edit history of 151 edits. Meanwhile on 27 July 2019‎ the article was recreated in article space with the comment "It's restoration of the page data" diffing the restored version against the now deleted history in drafts shows it is a copy (with minor changes) of the last non soc version on 25 April 2019 by user:Favonian with an edit comment of "rv sock of User:G.-M. Cupertino". -- PBS (talk) 09:50, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Re the idea that things "incubate in draft space". It was a great theory that things would improve in a less deletionist environment, but the place where we actually get collaborative editing is in mainspace. OK I fix a few typos in draftspace, but I'm an exception, for the most part it is a place where reviewers say what would be needed to get an article to the standard that they work to, and some newbies persist in trying to attain that standard - often a far higher standard than NPP or even AFD. If you move existing articles to draftspace it takes them out of the category system that some editors work through, out of people's mainspace searches and hides them from readers. Worse it puts them on a conveyor belt to deletion, even if they would have survived AFD. I'm OK with really spammy stuff being moved from mainspace to draft, but I don't see the case for it otherwise except as an AFD outcome. ϢereSpielChequers 10:12, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

It is 100% inappropriate to move an article that has existed in mainspace for nearly a year to the draft space except as an outcome of AFD. Any article outside the NPP queue even, I think it is entirely inappropriate and the correct approach would be one of the existing deletion mechanisms. (I might be even more to the point that anything which has managed to survive in article space for greater than 30 days probably also should use an appropriate deletion mechanism for removal.) --Izno (talk) 02:43, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

We don't have good documentation in this area, so what happens seems to depend upon personal preferences/philosophy: Alice says that this is a notable subject that will m:eventually turn into a decent article, and moves it into mainspace, and Bob says the page looks "embarrassing" and moves it back to Draft: space to hide it from readers. If it weren't for our usual rules against edit warring, they could keep doing this all day long, and each would believe that they're "right" and that "the community" does it their way and "the rules" say that the page should be in the place of their choice.
For people who are doing this, I think that a long look at the very short WP:AFCPURPOSE might be useful. That's what it takes (or what it's supposed to take) to get an article out of draftspace via the AFC process. So if you look that over, and you decide that the page in question meets AFC's standard for moving a page out of draftspace, then you shouldn't move the page into draftspace in the first place. Similarly, if you find something in the mainspace that doesn't meet AFC's one-important-question standard, then you get to decide whether to have its failings settled in draftspace (where it will probably get neglected and deleted in a few months) or at WP:AFD (where it will probably get neglected and deleted next week).
More generally, I think we need to have a few large-scale discussions about what should be done, and whether we're willing to make both Alice and Bob follow the standards that we settle on, including, if truly necessary, topic bans. I have been thinking about two areas for discussion:
  • Wikipedia's goal is to make knowledge available. Moving pages out of the mainspace hides that knowledge. Is it more important to provide knowledge – including knowledge on incomplete, "embarrassing" pages – or more important to protect our reputation? This is a "spectrum" question: you might say that you were 60% this and 40% that.
  • Should drafts on possibly non-notable subjects be handled at WP:AFD (which is where the notability experts are), or should they continue to be held at WP:MFD (which is mostly intended for Wikipedia's internal pages), or should they be moved to their own page ("WP:DFD")? Choosing the venue does not increase or decrease the amount of work involved, but it does partially determine who's involved in the discussion. Similarly, should there be a limit to the number of times AFC and NPP can reject a page before they have to hand it over to the larger community for a notability-related discussion? The general theme here is "Are drafts (sort of) articles, whose existence depends upon notability rather than quality, or are they something else?" WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:11, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Ikarus 280 is nearing end-of-life, this is a great opportunity for a challenge to hunt for sources and expand the article[edit]

The last cities to use Ikarus 200 series, which includes 260 and 280, Budapest and Győr, are ending routine (non-heritage) usage of these buses this Sunday. After these, we will only be able to ride these in expensive heritage rides or occasional events. Can we start a translation and expansion challenge for this article accordingly? Erkin Alp Güney 20:57, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Erkinalp9035, you might ask this question at WT:WikiProject Buses or WT:WikiProject Hungary. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:14, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Could someone create Wiki article for me?[edit]

I don't really know where this should go so let me just drop it here anyway I'm not Wiki-Wizard like most of the registered users here I know how to edit but that's it so could someone create new article for me if I provide all the little informations there is about 1 musical artist who's not so well known thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiki-Tieto (talkcontribs) 14:41, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Wiki-Tieto, English Wikipedia has notability criteria for musicians. "not so well known" can mean different things, but I would guess that this musical artist won't meet the criteria. —⁠andrybak (talk) 15:03, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

How to propose re-categorisation of multiple articles in a WikiProject[edit]

I am considering getting a group of articles relating to "mobile devices" rearranged in categories. However, there are at least 1000 articles and there are also at least two ways to categorise some articles (by company, then by feature, and even by OS), so I want to get the rearrangement approved through consensus. Is there a place where I can propose these complex moves (which I’m unable to find for some reason) or should I go to the relevant WikiProject? RedBulbBlueBlood9911|Talk 10:03, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

You should start a discussion at WP:CFD, with notes at any relevant projects directing people to that. I'd propose "test case" examples, making it clear that that is how they are being regarded. Johnbod (talk) 10:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC)