Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

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Case Created Last volunteer edit Last modified
Title Status User Time User Time User Time
Talk:Israeli settlement#Irish_bill In Progress Selfstudier (t) 15 days, 18 hours Robert McClenon (t) 2 days, 10 hours ZScarpia (t) 16 hours
User talk:RoySmith#Closing of Milk N Cooks AfD Closed Banana Republic (t) 13 days, 20 hours Robert McClenon (t) 13 days, 12 hours Robert McClenon (t) 13 days, 12 hours
Template talk:Romanian_language In Progress Borsoka (t) 10 days, 4 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 12 hours Borsoka (t) 1 days, 2 hours
Functional medicine Closed (t) 9 days, 17 hours Robert McClenon (t) 9 days, 17 hours Robert McClenon (t) 9 days, 17 hours
Ashleigh Barty New Sharyn4939 (t) 9 days, 7 hours Robert McClenon (t) 8 days, 14 hours WWGB (t) 5 days, 4 hours
Talk:Kid Cudi#The_discography_section_of_the_musician%27s_primary_article Closed Qlazarus (t) 8 days, 15 hours Robert McClenon (t) 8 days, 13 hours Robert McClenon (t) 8 days, 13 hours
Mar Thoma Syrian Church, User talk:Chandy of Pakalomattom Closed Chad The Goatman (t) 7 days, 9 hours Robert McClenon (t) 6 days, 23 hours Robert McClenon (t) 6 days, 23 hours
Talk:Camille Paglia#BLP_violation Closed Jean-Francois Gariepy (t) 5 days, 22 hours Robert McClenon (t) 4 days, 17 hours Robert McClenon (t) 4 days, 17 hours
Talk:The Real Housewives of New York City Failed KyleJoan (t) 5 days, 18 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 12 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 12 hours
Talk:List of programs broadcast by Seoul Broadcasting System On hold CherryPie94 (t) 4 days, 3 hours Robert McClenon (t) 3 days, Robert McClenon (t) 3 days,
Talk:International Society_for_Krishna_Consciousness#Editors_reverting_showing_bias? Closed Shiva das (t) 2 days, 14 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 23 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 23 hours
Talk:Super Audio_CD New Dharmabumstead (t) 12 hours None n/a Ianmacm (t) 6 hours
Talk:Machiavellianism (politics) Closed SuperWikiLover223 (t) 12 hours Rosguill (t) 10 hours Rosguill (t) 10 hours

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Last updated by DRN clerk bot (talk) at 06:00, 15 September 2019 (UTC)


Current disputes[edit]

Talk:Israeli settlement#Irish_bill[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Selfstudier on 18:27, 30 August 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

An editor removed material. I reverted. We then had discussions on the article talk page (and on my user talk page subsequently copied over to the talk page). The editor removed the material again. I reverted again and explained I would take it to dispute resolution.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?


How do you think we can help?

There may in the end be several issues but at present the dispute appears to revolve around who ONUS applies to. Should the onus be on me, the editor who originally added the material, to justify keeping it in (and it stays out meanwhile) or should the onus be on the editor deleting the material to justify taking the material out (and it stays in meanwhile).

Summary of dispute by Icewhiz[edit]

Selfstudier should adhere to WP:ONUS and WP:BRD - he added material, and got reverted. As for the material - it is poorly sourced (Middle East Monitor - very not mainstream) and of little lasting significance. This is a draft bill, in a small country (Ireland) that is far from the the area or the conflict. Furthermore the bill hasn't passed - from the homepage of the bill's sponsor (a source we must resort to due to lack of coverage) - we learn it is stuck in committee. In short - this draft bill received a little bit of coverage back in Jan, and very little since, and would have a rather minute effect even if passed. QED WP:UNDUE.Icewhiz (talk) 19:44, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

moved - wrong place.Icewhiz (talk) 18:45, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Israeli settlement#Irish_bill discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Statements by uninvolved editors[edit]

Statements by Banana Republic[edit]

Banana Republic (talk) 19:34, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Icewhiz seems to be misapplying WP policies.

  • First, Icewhiz claims WP:UNDUE.
    • Since there is a subsection in the article titled "Export to EU", it seems to me that any legislation reported in WP:RS impacting Export to EU would be DUE. Of course, the Wikipedia coverage should be much less in-depth than if the legislation were to become law. But that does not mean there should be zero mention unless the bill were to become law.
  • Icewhiz then claims WP:CRYSTAL
    • Mentioning legislation does not in and of itself predict passage into law.

Banana Republic (talk) 20:41, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Statements by Tradedia[edit]

  • I have to agree with the commenter above that since the material was added in June and not challenged until August, the material should stay until there is a new consensus to remove it.
  • Also, I would like to comment on the content. If the bill is passed into official law, then the added material would not be undue. The material is not excessively lengthy as compared to the size of the article. An official law for the first time in an EU country would be significant. Also, once the bill is passed into official law, there would presumably be more sources in terms of quantity and quality.
  • I would favor keeping the added material in the article until the bill is passed into official law. If the bill fails to pass and is abandoned, then the material could be removed. Tradediatalk 10:03, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Statements by ZScarpia[edit]

See also Talk:Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions# Ireland, Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) Bill 2018 for a talkpage discussion about whether the Irish bill should be mentioned in relation to BDS. The thread cites sources which may be seen as more "mainstream". Describing the bill as not having passed is a bit misleading. It was actually passed by both houses of the Irish parliament. However, the Irish prime minister was attempting to avoid signing the bill into law by invoking a "money message" provision. The bill was passed despite opposition by the Irish government. There is a certain irony in Icewhiz's small country and mainstream source references.     ←   ZScarpia   13:07, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

First statement by volunteer[edit]

I'm willing to try to conduct moderated discussion. User:Selfstudier, User:Icewhiz - Are you ready for moderated discussion? Please read WP:DRN Rule A and follow the rules. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion unless I provide a space for the purpose. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors.

Will each editor please reply, within 36 hours, and make a one-paragraph statement as to what they think the issue is about the content of the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:57, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

First statements by editors[edit]

Yes. Note @Shrike: also became involved in the article. The problem in my mind is WP:UNDUE - draft legislation is dime a dozen, the article's topic has extensive coverage, and the draft bill got some coverage when it passed a vote - and then disappeared (to the point we need to go to the homepage of the promoter to see its status). It may be due on Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (where I did not challenge it) as one of a few 2019 events of note for BDS - but not on this article.Icewhiz (talk) 02:46, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

I had already edited the article on 3 September in line with statement by Banana Republic, that is, I moved the content to the suggested section and added additional references. One issue was whether the material should remain in while any discussion takes place as to whether the material should be included at all. That the bill is not yet final in law (it is passed in both houses of the Irish parliament, formal stages only remain) does not make the information any less notable nor can I see what else precisely would make it UNDUE. If it is not UNDUE in the BDS article, then it is certainly not UNDUE here as exports from Israeli settlements are the specific target of the legislation.Selfstudier (talk) 08:11, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
BDS DUENESS is much-much easier - as BDS is only about boycotts (of settlements or Israel in general) - the settlement article is much wider in scope. At the moment we have essentialy a single newscycle of this back in Feb 2019. This might become DUE with sustained coverage. If we were to WP:CRYSTALBALL this having more coverage (and this is a highly notable topic) - we might end up with this draft bill remaining on the page after dying a silent death in committee (or remaining on ice in committee indefinitly)).Icewhiz (talk) 18:52, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
  • There is clear issue of WP:ONUS "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is upon those seeking to include disputed content." There is clearly no consensus among involved editors that its WP:DUE to include.If the law passes then we may reiterate this issue. --Shrike (talk) 09:04, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator[edit]

I think that some of this discussion is more about timing of edits and less about the final result than is necessary. The objective of this discussion is how to improve the article (or to leave it in its current state, if it is thought that it is in better shape than the proposed changes). I am not really interested in who edited what in the recent past, as much as in what we want the article to say. For the time being, the article will remain as is, stuck in the "wrong version", because the rules that I have chosen to use say not to edit the article while discussion is in progress. We do not need to discuss any temporary changes, because we are looking to a final version of the article.

Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. I will ask the questions. If you want to engage in back-and-forth discussion, please request that I provide a space for it, separate from the spaces for your statements.

Is the real question whether to refer to a bill that is being discussed in the parliament of the Republic of Ireland in the article? If so, who thinks that the bill should be mentioned, and why? Who thinks that the bill should not be mentioned, and why not? Each editor, whether an original party or another editor, should state in one paragraph what their objective is about the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:59, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Second statements by editors[edit]

The statement currently in the article should remain, it is directly relevant to the subject matter of the article. The main argument presented for non-inclusion is that it has not yet completed all of the stages for it to become law but of itself that seems an insufficient reason for non-inclusion when one considers that the included material is notable, is limited in size and scope and clearly states that stages remain for it to become law.Selfstudier (talk) 22:23, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

  • I (and I think @Shrike: on the talk/article) object to inclusion. The bill hasn't passed and even if it were to pass - would have a marginal effect (Ireland at 333 billion GDP is 1.7% of the EU's 18.8 trillion GDP. Israeli exports to Ireland overall are very small - e.g. per Irish Times - only 60 million euro total of which (settlements are 2% of the economy) - 1.2 million euro are from settlements (around 0.5% of settlement exports to the EU - which are at 230 million dollars). The current items in Israeli settlement#Export to EU (which is a tad too long as-is) have tangible effects - they are actually in force and are either EU wide or on a significant economy (e.g. UK - 2622 billion GDP - or 13.8% of the (still in) EU)). More importantly than the actual effect of this bill if it is actually passed - what we are missing is coverage to make this WP:DUE for a topic with so much coverage. Icewhiz (talk) 07:46, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

As I wrote above, if the bill is passed into official law, then the added material would not be undue. The material is not excessively lengthy as compared to the size of the article. An official law in an EU country would be significant. Also, once the bill is passed into official law, there would presumably be more sources in terms of quantity and quality. I would favor keeping the added material in the article until the bill is passed into official law. If the bill fails to pass and is abandoned, then the material could be removed. Tradediatalk 09:24, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree with everything Tradedia wrote except the last sentence. I think the material would be notable even if the bill fails to become law. Credible efforts to boycott exports from the settlements are notable. This is basically saying that notability is not temporary. Banana Republic (talk) 17:45, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator[edit]

There are four possible ways to resolve this. We can all agree to include the material. We can all agree to exclude the material. Someone can propose a compromise wording. Or there can be a Request for Comments. So, does anyone have a proposed compromise? Will the editors who want to include the material agree to its exclusion in the interest of harmony? Will the editors who want to exclude the material agree to its inclusion in the interest of harmony? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:45, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Third statements by editors[edit]

On the article talk page I had already suggested that the editor who originally removed the material conduct an RFC if removal was desired. The editor insisted that I remove the material and that it was my responsibility to do that, which I dispute, and now we are here, in effect conducting what amounts to an RFC. As it stands there is a consensus for leaving the material in, if we can get more inputs to that de facto RFC to confirm that consensus, then that would be a good thing, would it not? Selfstudier (talk) 12:39, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

  • There is no consensus to include this - but how about this - I don't think wasting community time of assessing WP:UNDUE here via a RfC is worth the time at present - particularly given the WP:ILIKEIT and WP:CRYSTALBALL arguments here (which are not soundly grounded in policy) that the bill was pass into law. So - how about we leave this in the article for now, and reassess in 3-6 months based on actual coverage in reliable sources of this. I would suggest that the current 3 sentence blurb be shortened to "The Irish Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) draft bill would prohibit in Ireland the purchase of goods and services from the Golan Heights, East Jerusalem or West Bank settlements; as of February 2019 the bill has not been enacted". Icewhiz (talk) 12:49, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

I do not understand how one would apply a time limit to article content, I assume that as time passes, something or nothing will happen and editors will react accordingly. The purpose of the material is to convey an appropriate amount of information to the reader, I do not see how cutting the material as suggested is very helpful, it seems to me that the purpose in doing so is to make it appear as if the material is not notable. I had in any case intended to make amendments to clarify that the bill has passed both upper and lower houses and to indicate the stages remaining so I propose, suitably referenced (I removed the proposed penalties):

Having been agreed in full by the Upper house on 5 December 2018, and by the Dail (Ireland's lower house) on 24 January 2019, the Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) bill [1] prohibits the purchasing of any good and/or service from the Golan Heights, East Jerusalem or West Bank settlements. As of July 2019 the bill is in committee stage.Remaining Stages Selfstudier (talk) 15:17, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

I am not suggesting a time-limit - merely that we reassess in 3-6 months. Arguments here so far have been based on "it's due" (without showing RS coverage) or "it's going to pass into law" (WP:CRYSTALBALL). I don't see any great harm in the article containing an WP:UNDUE short blurb for another 3-6 months - per Wikipedia:There is no deadline. If indeed this passes into law and if it has sufficient RS coverage in 3-6 months to meet WP:DUE in 3-6 months - that will be easier to assess. Icewhiz (talk) 15:33, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

You have not said whether you agree with my proposed wording. If you do, I will do the necessary and we can close this.Selfstudier (talk) 15:50, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

The voting record in various Irish legislative bodies is irrelevant (being an internal Irish affair, of no consequence outside of Ireland) - so no - I do not agree. In addition - the source for "as of July 2019 the bill is in committee stage" is unclear - is this according to the bill's sponsor? That would not be a RS. Icewhiz (talk) 16:22, 12 September 2019
Then I withdraw my proposal and revert to my original position (if you click the link (remaining stages) provided above you will see that the source for the "committee stage" is the Irish government website bill tracker which shows stages completed to date and remaining stages).Selfstudier (talk) 16:41, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
your source is dated 24 January (not June). It shows the next stage (8) is a committee - followed by stages 9,10, and 11 - of which 9&10 seem to be two additional votes in the Dáil . Icewhiz (talk) 17:02, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
As of 22 March 2019, the bill had been passed by both houses in the Irish parliament, but the government, which opposed the bill, was dragging its feet about signing it into law: "Both the Seanad and the Dáil have passed the Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) Bill 2018. Despite this, the Government has yet to enact the legislation, wanting instead to put the Bill through a type of economic “stress test” (detailed scrutiny) before proceeding."     ←   ZScarpia   20:05, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

We have each refused the alternative wording of the other, the only option remaining should you still wish to have the material removed is an RFC.Selfstudier (talk) 17:37, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Fourth Statement by Moderator[edit]

Will each editor who favors a statement about the Irish bill provide a one-paragraph draft of what should be said, and state exactly where in the article it will be mentioned? The purpose is to determine the wording of the RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:52, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Fourth Statements by Editors[edit]

Export to EU[edit]

In Ireland, the Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) Bill cleared the Upper house on 5 December 2018 and has progressed to Third StageCommittee in the Lower house following a Second Stage vote of 78 to 45 on 24 January 2019.RefRef. Although debate has focused on the Palestinian territories the bill prohibits the purchase of goods and services from any occupied territory.Ref

(References are shown as links, the suggested section is where the current version of this material is presently located).Selfstudier (talk) 12:38, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

The above assumes that the RFC will consider removal of the existing material, albeit that changes as above are contemplated. If that is not the case, then I do not wish to propose the altered material above and I would prefer simply to retain the material that was improperly removed in the first instance, so that in the event of no consensus, the material remains in the article. Selfstudier (talk) 21:23, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Removal as UNDUE was fit and proper. In the event of no consensus to include in a RfC - per WP:ONUS it is removed. If we do run a full RfC - the other option will be to remove. If you want to compromise on my suggestion above in round 3 (forestalling removal until we see it truly died in committee - or - passed - and RS coverage either way) - that's still ok with me.Icewhiz (talk) 05:59, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Your original removal of material in August of material in the article since June was disputed and the option was available to you to commence an RFC for removal, the usual procedure for a contested removal; instead you chose to engage in improper reverting in an attempt to enforce your POV, as has been pointed out by me and 2 other editors here. I merely wish to ensure that your behavior is not rewarded in any way. It is not an RFC for addition of material (if no consensus, material is not added) it is an RFC for maintaining the material that was originally in the article prior to your contested removal (if no consensus, material stays in). Selfstudier (talk) 11:21, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
The RfC question should be neutrally posed - e.g. "Should the article include the following passage: .....".Icewhiz (talk) 14:32, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Per Consensus "In discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit." I expect we will follow this.Selfstudier (talk) 14:51, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

User talk:RoySmith#Closing of Milk N Cooks AfD[edit]

Symbol comment vote.svg – General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Banana Republic on 16:44, 1 September 2019 (UTC).

Template talk:Romanian_language[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Borsoka on 08:40, 5 September 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Content of the Template:Romanian language.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

No, because the debate is too complex to seek 3rd opinion or to request comments. Now (four days after placing this request) I requested 3rd opinion, because I want to avoid both edit warring and the presentation of results of original research. Borsoka (talk) 14:04, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

How do you think we can help?

Through mediation to help us to understand the other party's concerns.

Summary of dispute by Rgvis[edit]

My editings were well referenced from the beginning. However, User:Borsoka, probably in the desire to impose his/her personal point of view, has continued to make changes in a manner that is as disruptive as possible (no matter of other additional explanations provided). (Rgvis (talk) 10:34, 5 September 2019 (UTC))

Summary of dispute by Borsoka[edit]

The presentation of Re-latinization of Romanian as a period of the development of the Romanian language on a navigation box.

The presentation of the Transylvanian School as a period of the development of the Romanian language (instead of mentioning it either within the scope of re-latinization, or in an other line of the same navigation box). Borsoka (talk) 14:04, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Template talk:Romanian_language discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Nearly. I would rather say that the terminology is the core of the debate. Borsoka (talk) 23:49, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Or we can rather say, the presentation of the historical evolution is the core of the debate. I think we agree that there are three stages of the development of the language (Proto-Romanian, Old Romanian and Modern Romanian) and we also agree that its substrate language and Vulgar Latin should also be mentioned. Borsoka (talk) 23:57, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes, the periodization is disputed, especially the modern Romanian period, which is also divided into three well-defined stages (pre-modern, modern, and contemporary, each stage being characterized by certain directions). (Rgvis (talk) 09:17, 10 September 2019 (UTC))

First statement by moderator[edit]

Please read the ground rules for moderated discussion. Be civil and concise. (Fortunately, that seems to be already the case here.) Comment on content, not contributors. I am not an expert on templates and know very little about Romanian, but I am familiar with the concept of periodization. Will each editor state briefly what they think should be the periods and any sub-periods, with a brief description of each? I would like to see if we can get a structure that everyone accepts. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:58, 11 September 2019 (UTC) User:Borsoka, User:Rgvis - Please provide brief statements on what the periodization should be. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:41, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

First statements by Borsoka[edit]

Thank you for your mediation. I think a third opinion had meanwhile solved the problem. Borsoka (talk) 10:05, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Functional medicine[edit]

Symbol comment vote.svg – General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by on 19:06, 5 September 2019 (UTC).

Ashleigh Barty[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by Sharyn4939 on 05:17, 6 September 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Regarding the (correct) Nationality description of "Indigenous Australian". The word "Indigenous" keeps getting removed when describing her ethnicity. This is significant because Ashleigh identifies as an Aboriginal person and is recognised as such by the Aboriginal community. She is not described as an Indigenous Australian anywhere on the page - her father is - but mention is only made to her background. This is not accurate and it is completely inappropriate that non Indigenous people keep redefining the identity of an Aboriginal person. The Aboriginal community has perceived this ongoing edit war as a racist attack to attempt to obscure her Aboriginal identity. It is an example of non Indigenous people cleansing content to suit their own comfort level of race. Wikipedia should not be a platform governed by White Privilege, there is no room for racism here. User Nigos closed down my previous attempt at conflict resolution stating I did not provide a source - which I have done - and that accusations of racism were "borderline attack" - I'm not sure how you would describe the behaviour of non Indigenous editors in seeking to obscure a successful Aboriginal person's race except as racist. Furthermore Nigos seems to be basing stated opinion on the simple version of the page and not the comprehensive page that I referenced in the dispute - guess Nigos is using a mobile phone to make judgements to close disputes. The talk page has very clear and well articulated reasons why Ashleigh should be referred to as an Indigenous Australian and many pages of other Indigenous Australians use similar descriptive language prominently. Everyone who is coming into this discussion with an Aboriginal voice or perspective is being shut down.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Talk page, provided link to news article which outlines how Aboriginal people see the edit war - Digital Genocide is the title of the Welcome to Country article on the subject.

How do you think we can help?

To resolve the ongoing stalemate over the use of the word "Indigenous". This edit war has been going on for months and it is not going to stop - the Aboriginal community are offended by the digital ethnic cleansing at the hands of non Indigenous editors.

Summary of dispute by WWGB[edit]

Per MOS:ETHNICITY, "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability". Barty is notable for being a top tennis player. While it is undeniable that Barty is indigenous, that is not the reason for her notability. WWGB (talk) 05:36, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion in the summary of dispute. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:43, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
WGB : You keep talking about the lead but I have said this numerous times, I will try again. Nowhere in the article does it say she is an Indigenous Australian. Furthermore your assessment of the relevance to the notability of her achievement is racially biased based on your own comprehension of the issue. You might not fathom why this is notable and that is understandable if you are not well educated in Indigenous Australian issues. But your resistance to trying to understand the inappropriateness of your obstructive actions is troubling. (Sharyn4939 (talk) 06:30, 6 September 2019 (UTC))
You showed a link to an article on Welcome to country, which called Wikipedians "colonists" who commit "digital genocide". I think this is a borderline personal attack. On W:Simple:Talk:Ashleigh Barty, you claimed it wad a source, when it seemed to be a personal commentary. Nigos (talk Contribs) 08:17, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
By the way, there are 13 mentions of the word "indigenous" in the article. Nigos (talk Contribs) 08:25, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
Nigos A "borderline personal attack"... by an Indigenous Media outlet 3 months ago? How is that exactly? I'm not being difficult, I just can't join the dots on that. I provided that link as evidence of my statement about how the Aboriginal community perceives this issue, I assumed that is what you meant when you said the onus was on me..or did you mean that I needed to provide evidence of her Aboriginality? (surely not?) Do you think that whenever racial bias is called out it is to be characterised as a personal attack, because this is the second time you have used that phrase. Are you familiar with the history of genocide in Australia? Would you like me to outline the history and context of the article? I believe that an issue in this dispute is that the people who are resistant to the addition of the word "Indigenous" are not very well educated or informed on Aboriginal history, culture or contemporary issues. In this I would be more than happy to explain why so many people have tried to edit this page over the last 3 months, and why it isn't going to stop until Ash is properly described as an Indigenous or Aboriginal Australian. My family is Bundjalung and I am very much involved in contemporary Aboriginal issues. I worked for many years as a cultural awareness facilitator within both the Australian Federal and NSW State Government. I was the National Project Manager of Cultural Awareness within the Department of Employment, Education and Training so I am qualified to assist in the elevation of cultural sensitivity. I would also love it if someone could help me understand why so many users object to the term Indigenous Australian, and why this edit war has gone on for so long. I understand the passion and indignation of Aboriginal people and their allies who want to see the word included. If not racism, then what is the motivation of the many users who keep expunging her cultural identity? Plenty of prominent Indigenous people on Wikipedia have their cultural identity stated in the first couple of sentences, so it is not a stretch that this person could as well, why the fuss? The number of times "Indigenous" is used is not the issue, and I refer you back to the dispute I have outlined above. Thank you (Sharyn4939 (talk) 10:05, 6 September 2019 (UTC))
You can't just assume that the people you aren't happy with are "modern-day colonisers". We don't even know where they actually are. I haven't fully read the manual of style, but apparently there is this MOS:ETHNICITY. The info can be added to the infobox. Just remember that not all Wikipedia editors are White, as you said at User talk:Thebrisc. Nigos (talk Contribs) 11:41, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Fyunck[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
@Fyunck: This is my first dispute, was unsure of the process of notifying you for comment. (Sharyn4939 (talk) 07:12, 6 September 2019 (UTC))
Wrong ping name. It's lucky I even saw this since you'd need to put Fyunck(click) as the name. First off, you need to follow protocol or things go south very quickly in a discussion. You make a bold edit to an article. You get reverted by someone. You make the same bold edit to the article with perhaps a better summary as to why. Someone else reverts you. You NEVER re-add it again. It's brought to talk and you try your best to convince others why your way is correct. If others disagree you can try to bring more people into the discussion with an RFC, but you don't force the change by edit warring.
As for the post here, I'm kinda confused by it. You say indigenous keeps getting removed, that we are all racists with white privilege. Well that's hogwash. Not everything goes in the first paragraph of the lead. We don't say Maria Sharapova is a Siberian Russian born tennis player. We wouldn't say someone is an Eskimo if they represent Canada. The WTA has a bio on Barty that makes no mention that she's aboriginal (or actually half aboriginal). Australia, same thing, nothing in the bio. Her twitter and facebook accounts, zip on aboriginal! You say there's no mention of it in the article, and that would be incorrect. The lead already says ""Barty is of Indigenous heritage and serves as the National Indigenous Tennis Ambassador for Tennis Australia." Prose also says her father is "a Ngarigo Indigenous Australian" and her mother is "the daughter of English immigrants." Later in prose we have a quote from Barty, "I'm a very proud Indigenous woman...". There is plenty there but I'm guessing you demand it be in the first sentence, not just the lead? I would disagree, and it appears so do many others. And that's where we are. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:49, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion in the summary of dispute. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:43, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
Fyunck I have had my toes in the Wikipedia pool for less than 24 hours and it is about as user friendly as a porcupine, so if I have not followed protocol it's because researching protocol is like putting stockings on an octopus. I takes a little time and obviously it is easy to mess up. OK so all I can really glean from your comment is validation that your cultural awareness of Australian Aboriginal people is not very high. If someone identifies as Aboriginal, then they are Aboriginal (and please note the capital A in Aboriginal). There is no half Aboriginal, there is no quarter Aboriginal. Those are terms that people use who have really identified as non Indigenous but are describing their ethnic heritage as a jigsaw - personal identity is not a jigsaw - you are or you aren't. In Australia, generally this is the language of people who use skin colour or European ancestry as a way to discredit, delegitimise, denigrate or discriminate against Aboriginal people. Furthermore, in Australia Blood Quantum is highly offensive and considered racist because it was used as an instrument in the Stolen Generation to usurp the parental rights of Aboriginal people and steal their children. No culturally sensitive person describes a person who has identified as Aboriginal as half Aboriginal. Nowhere in the article (in the words of editors) does it say that Ash is an Indigenous Australian. It says she is of Indigenous heritage which (as I explained above) is not the same thing. (I have Scottish, English and Irish heritage, and I do not identify as any of those). The description of her father is accurate, unfortunately the only similar description of the subject is wayyyyyy down the bottom and in her own words. And those words show that the woman herself feels that her cultural identity is a significant part of who she is.. (and note Fyunck, she does not say she is a proud half Aboriginal woman). There are reasons why Indigenous Australians identify specifically as Indigenous Australians that can not be compared to your Sharapova analogy above, but I feel like I could write you a book on your knowledge gaps of Indigenous Australia and what you need to take away from this is that you are culturally and historically ignorant - which is fine in itself because lots of people are - what is important is that you take the time to listen to Aboriginal people and be prepared to understand that the sphere of white privilege does not extend to encompass the Earth, there are actually other valid perspectives... And many others disagree with your take too... hence a 3 month back and fro - kinda like a ball over a net - and it isn't going to end until the page reflects her Cultural Identity. (Sharyn4939 (talk) 10:46, 6 September 2019 (UTC))
Its quite weird that some of those accounts and IPs made most of their edits on Ashleigh Barty... Yes, there may be some grammatical errors. Did this whole thing start with that news outlet article??? Nigos (talk Contribs) 11:36, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
Some of these points could have been brought up on the talk page and discussed instead of ramming things down peoples throats. You complain of Wikipedia being unfriendly and that it takes time to learn. You haven't exactly tried with all your racism talk. You don't come in as an ensign and turn the engines up to warp 5. That's asking for disaster. That is not working and playing well with others. Talk pages are where changes happen and for getting your point across. All this seems to mean more to you than it does to Barty whose personal pages are pretty baron of the issue. We also have to be careful because according to the wikipedia article on Indigenous Australians, the term can actually be hurtful and disgusting to the original inhabitants and many don't like it at all. There is a Barty article on wikipedia because of one thing, she is a good tennis player and is notable for her playing. Highlights of those things are what belongs in the lead section. The only reason indigenous gets mention in the lead at all is because she is a National Indigenous Tennis Ambassador for Tennis Australia. The rest belongs in her early years or personal life section just like you'd do with baseball great Johnny Bench and his indigenous background. In her early life and background the first sentence, with consensus, could be tweaked to say "Barty was born on 24 April 1996 to Josie and Robert Barty, and is an Indigenous Australian." It's possible that could work. But it would be best for you to understand what a paint brush is before you start creating the next Mona Lisa. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:04, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Nigos[edit]

I (mistakenly) reverted one of their edits on simplewiki for being unsourced. I closed the previous dispute on enwiki as it was made when the filer only made one edit to the talk page. Nigos (talk Contribs) 08:20, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Ashleigh Barty discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Just to be clear I have changed the relevant section heading to "Indigenous Australian or simply Australian?" Bus stop (talk) 13:54, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I am sympathetic to the views of Sharyn4939 but I am ultimately opposed to it. In this instance we should simply follow standard practice. In the first sentence of the lede it is sufficient to just note date of birth, reason for notability, and country. Further down in the lede it does mention that she is a member of the Indigenous population of Australia. But I think this is of secondary importance to the prevailing government. It tends to be standard practice in our bio articles in the first sentence to mention the country from which the subject hails, and that would simply be Australia. That is not a slight against her identity as an Indigenous person. Bus stop (talk) 14:09, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

The term "Indigenous Australian" has been added in the last paragraph of the lead. That may satisfy the complainant. WWGB (talk) 07:59, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Kid Cudi#The_discography_section_of_the_musician%27s_primary_article[edit]

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Filed by Qlazarus on 21:16, 6 September 2019 (UTC).

Mar Thoma Syrian Church, User talk:Chandy of Pakalomattom[edit]

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Filed by Chad The Goatman on 03:26, 8 September 2019 (UTC).

Talk:Camille Paglia#BLP_violation[edit]

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Filed by Jean-Francois Gariepy on 14:20, 9 September 2019 (UTC).

Talk:The Real Housewives of New York City[edit]

Pictogram voting delete.svg – Closed as failed. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by KyleJoan on 18:25, 9 September 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Talk:List of programs broadcast by Seoul Broadcasting System[edit]

Pictogram voting comment.png – This request has been placed on hold.
Filed by CherryPie94 on 08:49, 11 September 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The issue is that I was updating red links using template:ill to help readers access the original-language Wikipedia to aid them in creating articles or simply read the articles if they know Korean. However, The Banner, keeps undoing my changes because "this is the English language Wikipedia. Not much people can read Korean here." They keep removing even the red links, which is against WP:RED, since the subject of the red links is notable and I can find lots of sources about it. Moreover, they keep claiming I have a Conflict of Interest just because I added template:ill. In addition, they tag the article with "This article contains content that is written like an advertisement" and "A major contributor to this article appears to have a close connection with its subject", which is baseless. I tried reasoning with them, however, they keep coming and undoing my change and tagging the article with false tags.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I tried discussing it here but The Banner refuse to discuss the issue, provide guidelines/rules that I'm wrong in adding template:ill, and help us all reach a solution, and instead keep claiming I have a conflict of interest without discussing the main issue.

How do you think we can help?

We should reach a consensus if we are allowed to use template:ill in the English Wikipedia, to aid readers access info to read and create articles, or not.

Summary of dispute by The Banner[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Could you please tell me where we have recently discussed this, as I am not aware of that. The Banner talk 10:01, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Talk:List of programs broadcast by Seoul Broadcasting System discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer Note - I am putting this thread on hold to permit discussion at the article talk page to resume. There was discussion at the article talk page, but it was six months ago. Resume discussion on the article talk page. If discussion is lengthy and inconclusive, this thread can be activated. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:13, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment - The discussion was six months ago, but the The Banner refused to discuss the main point properly and stopped replying after that. However, a couple of days ago, they went back to remove template:ill and other red links and undoing my changes, without trying to reach a solution in the talk page first. They claim it is not usefully and people can't read Korean (of course it will be not useful to them, since they are not interested in Editing Korea-related articles), however, adding template:ill shows that there is an article in Korean and it helped me and other volunteers make articles in English. ~~ CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 08:06, 12 September 2019 (UTC) Savino&action=history[edit]

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Filed by Sambiswas95 on 10:27, 12 September 2019 (UTC).

Talk:International Society_for_Krishna_Consciousness#Editors_reverting_showing_bias?[edit]

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Filed by Shiva das on 22:38, 12 September 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Talk:Super Audio_CD[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by Dharmabumstead on 00:30, 15 September 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The lead of the Super Audio CD page has a reference to a study (discussed at length elsewhere in the article) that I believe should not be in the lead. Aside from the fact that the sentence referencing the study is placed in a way that seems to imply that it caused the format to fail in the marketplace, the study itself (a comparison of the quality of CD audio versus high-resolution audio from DVD-A and SACD sources) was quite controversial and flawed (by admission of the study's authors). Placing it in the lead makes the article seem biased, and makes the study seem more conclusive than it actually was (see WP:UNDUE). I tried simply removing the reference from the lead, but one editor in particular seems quite intent on leaving the reference in because he insists it's "CRITICALLY IMPORTANT" to the history of SACD, without citing evidence that it is.


Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Yes. There's been extensive discussion in the talk page.

How do you think we can help?

Have a neutral third part take a look at it.

Summary of dispute by Binksternet[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

This guy doesn't like a study published in the journal of the Audio Engineering Society, which is where the top audio studies are found. The study says people cannot generally hear the difference between a high resolution SACD recording and the same recording downsampled to just CD quality. Secondary sources have described the study as important to the topic, but this guy – who has a professional connection to audiophiles – hates the test so much that he thinks it should not be mentioned in the lead section.

I think this is a question of behavior, not a matter for dispute resolution. His behavior. Binksternet (talk) 02:46, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Ianmacm[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

As I've said at Talk:Super Audio CD, I don't believe that the 2007 AES study had much to do with the failure of SACD to become a successful format. The players and discs were too expensive for most people, and by 2007-9 the market had moved away from physical disc formats in the direction of Internet audio with downloads and streaming media. In this edit I was worried about WP:LABEL as there needs to be a clearer explanation of why some people disagreed with the 2007 AES study.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 05:48, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Super Audio_CD discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

A few items here, in response to Binksternet's summary:

  • Whether or not I like the report isn't really material here. It's widely acknowledged by many people - including the authors of the study - that the report is controversial, flawed, and not scientifically sound. It should also be noted that the study was NOT specifically about the SACD format, but rather whether CD's lower-resoluton audio was "good enough" that people couldn't distinguish it from high resolution audio sources (they used both SACD *and* DVD-Audio in the study).
  • I have absolutely zero "professional connections" to "audiophiles", and unlike Binksternet, who actually belongs to the AES (the group that published the study in question), I belong to no professional audio industry groups. I have no idea what the basis for that assertion is, but it's false. Not that that should matter, anyway.
  • As I've made very clear in the article's talk section, I don't think the reference belongs there not only because the study is controversial and flawed, but because it's *bad writing* (as it stands, it makes it seem as though the study was responsible for the failure of SACD in the marketplace), and because there's no purpose to having it there, as it seems to violate WP:NPOV. Leaving it there - as one of the first things a reader sees when they get to the article - gives the false impression that the study was undisputed and definitive, and gives it a weight and importance to the history of SACD that it simply doesn't have (see WP:UNDUE). No other Wiki article on audio formats (including CD and DVD-A, the other formats that were used in the study) have a mention of the study "above the fold" in the lead section.
  • Speaking of behavior: Binksternet appears to be acting like a bully who's taken umbrage that some upstart Wiki newb is challenging his "authority". His reasoning for leaving the reference to the study in the lead seems to boil down to "because I said so". He was disdainful and dismissive of the large numbers of people who disputed the study, with asinine and unsubstantiated statements like "it wasn't controversial unless your business model depended on SACD sales". He demanded that I go find secondary sources to back up my assertion that the report was "controversial" and "disputed" and not definitive. When I provided those references - not just from the very same professional journal as the original study, but also from the actual authors of the study - in the talk section of the article, he proceeded to ignore those and simply revert my changes back without comment as soon as the page was unlocked. I also - out of nowhere - had a semi-retired Wiki admin leave a threatening warning about "blatantly and purposefully" harassing Binksternet on my user talk page, without the slightest justification or explanation (Binksternet has denied having anything to do with this).

We appear to be at an impasse, which is why I opened a dispute. Dharmabumstead (talk) 03:49, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Machiavellianism (politics)[edit]

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