Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

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Behavioral problem on Right-wing politics[edit]

Sourced material was added to Right-wing politics on August 11 (not by me). [1] Three weeks later, there was a dispute about whether to keep it, so a discussion ensued [2]. The discussion did not reach a consensus, so I started an RfC about whether it should be kept or not. [3] Now, the editors who want to delete the material User:Springee and User:Victor Salvini are removing it, despite the fact that the RfC is still running. [4], [5], [6].

I would appreciate an admin informing Springee and Victor Salvini not to remove the material in question until the RfC has run its course. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:33, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Both editors notified. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:36, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
(ec) The material was originally added by @Michael E Nolan: on 11 August [[7] and deleted by Victor Salvini (new editor, account started 22 June, 92 edits to date) on 3 September [8], 23 days later. The deletion was reverted by @Acroterion: that same day, about 3 1/2 hours later. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:51, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
The restoration was part of a bulk restoration and appears to have been restored not to rescue this text but rather to revert this edit [[9]]. See the talk comment here [[10]]. Springee (talk) 05:01, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
BMK needs to review both WP:BRD and WP:CON. Simple version. Material was added. Four edits to the article later, that material was rejected. I have not been involved with the editing of the article in question but noted the back and forth edits on Sept 3rd. I opened a talk discussion and pinged the involved editors (BMK was not involved at that point)[[11]]. Contrary to BMK's claim, the talk page rather quickly reached a local consensus with both of the original editors favoring removing the paragraph and myself favoring removal[Edit: It's probably more accurate to say one favored removal and the other didn't seem to object]. BMK favored inclusion, thus 3:1 against inclusion.[[12]]. Since this was new material a non-consensus is sufficient for removal. BMK opened a RfC. That's fine. The current RfC is 4:1 against.[[13]] If the RfC finds for inclusion in the end, it will be included. In the mean time BMK is attempting to use the existence of the RfC as a block to prevent the removal of the material that clearly has no support from other editors. My read is this was new content that was rejected and no local consensus has ever existed for inclusion thus BRD and the flowchart shown in WP:CON apply here. The material was removed and should not have been restored until consensus for inclusion was reached. The WP:CON policy does not support keeping recently added, disputed content in place until a RfC is completed. Springee (talk) 04:45, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
Do you have any evidence of meatpuppetry or coordination? If not this seems like a bad faith accusation. Springee (talk) 05:03, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
I think there is sufficient implicit evidence on the talk page to bring it up. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:26, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
I disagree...as it seems do others. Buffs (talk) 20:50, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
remark by blocked user commented out by Buffs (talk)
  • Comment: A CU may want to look at Buff Sanass; specifically their contributions, and read the article names vertical. Clever, but clearly not here.--Jorm (talk) 01:21, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
  • At any case, indeffed. El_C 01:28, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
  • El_C, thank you for blocking that NOTHERE vandal. There's absolutely no need for that kind of thing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:53, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Also, perhaps a checkuser might take a look at 199.247.43.138, which looks very much a logged-out editor avoiding scrutiny in their edits to Right-wing populism [14], [15], [16].
    These reverts were made after I completely re-shaped the material in order to move it to a specific section of the article, to answer the complaints that it wasn't pertinent in the section it was in. It looks more and more like this is a deliberate campaign of whitewashing. Neither of the two articles that are concerned here has a consensus for the removal of this material, but it is being kept out of both articles by brute force. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:12, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Should WP:ONUS not apply here, with the contested edit that is being introduced only included once there is consensus for inclusion? El_C 05:05, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, El_C, I'm not understanding your point clearly. There is an RfC running to determine consensus. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:24, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
Inclusion should happen after there is consensus to include. It seems like the cart is being put before the horse. El_C 05:28, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
Umm.. I don't think so. :The material was in the article for over three weeks, plenty of time for WP:SILENCE to make it part of the status quo version, in which case the BOLD edit is not the inclusion of the material on 11 August, but the first removal by Victor Salvini on 3 September. At that point, the issue becomes not whether it should be included -- because it already is included -- but whether it should be deleted, which the RfC will determine, if it weren't being usurped by two editos who want it removed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:08, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
I don't know whether three weeks counts as longstanding text. Maybe. At the very least, it's borderline. El_C 06:11, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
On Wikipedia? Three weeks is an eternity. <g> Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:14, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
Three weeks is an eternity at Donald Trump. Not quite an eternity at an irregularly edited article like Right-wing politics. Bishonen | talk 08:54, 8 September 2019 (UTC).
Have to at least partially agree with Bishonen etc. Three weeks is far from an eternity. IMO even 2 months can be reasonable on a barely edited article. Disputes over article content are perhaps not the best examples to look at since most of the time people don't really care as we can usually achieve consensus on something. So really it's just a pointless dispute over interim content. But in case where no consensus is a realistic outcome, you can probably find a lot of examples. E.g. undiscussed page moves. Or undiscussed era or language changes. Nil Einne (talk) 10:24, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
Since there were just 4 edits between the addition and removal I don’t think the 3 weeks could be considered stable. I would ask that someone look at SquisherDa restoration of the content in the past few hours. It seems like an unwise restoration. Springee (talk) 11:00, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
I concur with Bishonen and El_C... I think that's the first time I've done that... Buffs (talk) 17:50, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I’ve been notified about this discussion and I’m here to give my testimony. On August 11th a user included a quote in right wing politics by Steve bannon. The quote was thrown in without context and presented no information. I removed the quote one September 3rd only for it to be added back again. The issue went to talk where’s there’s now a huge message history regarding it. Ken started a vote on whether it should be removed or kept. After a few days a supermajority of users who had voted were against the inclusion on the quote. Since the discussion was dying down and no one else was getting involved I removed the quote again, this time ken re-added the quote telling me that we had to wait 30 days before removing (because an “RfC” or something was running, I don’t know what he was on about). Springee, a user who’s been a strong supporter of removing the quote, said in the talk page that the quote could be removed because of the time since it was originally added, and removed the quote again, only for it to get added back again by another user and now we’re here. Victor Salvini —Preceding undated comment added 15:46, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

  • Per WP:STATUSQUO, I have restored restoring the 00:32, 6 August 2019 version (stable version from before the recent edit war, unchallenged for nearly two months). I then re-added a minor grammar correction and short description template as being uncontroversial changes that are unlikely to be challenged.
Please discuss your preferred version on the article talk page rather than through back-and-forth edits. If you cannot reach a consensus, I suggest settling the dispute through the ongoing RfC. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:37, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
Thank you! It feels like BMK is pushing a political agenda with this filing. Buffs (talk) 17:49, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
I would say exactly the opposite, actually, that Springee, in particular, is going of their way to remove pertinent material because they simply do not want to see an accurate assessment of right-wing populism in a Wikipedia article. Case in point: when I added the same material to Right-wing populism, and supported it with material from two undoubtedly reliable academic sources, they removed it from that article as well, and the academic sources with it.
My only agenda (as always) is that our articles accurately present prtinent and sourced information on their subject matters, as opposed to attempting to WP:CENSOR information that I don't like. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:05, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
And Springee continues their attempt to whitewash Right-wing populism of material they apparently disagree with. Once again, this is a behavioral issue resulting from a content dispute, not a content dispute per se. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:09, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
Please do not cast aspersions by accusing others of "whitewashing". Springee (talk) 00:24, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
Since you're following me from article to article with the only obvious reason the deletion of this material, I think that a violation of WP:CENSOR (i.e. "whitewashing") is a reasonable conclusion. WP:Casting aspersions is about making claims without evidence. In this case, the evidence appears to be sufficient to raise the issue. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:58, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
I'll side with Springee on this one. BMK, this is a WP:POINTy edit and I think you know it. You want this quote included, but you don't seem to have any third party analysis of it. An analogous situation would be someone of prominence standing up and saying "The White House is White because it is a symbol of racism in France, where the architect came from" and including it in the White House article at the end of the paragraph about it's design. It simply doesn't belong. While it's verifiable, within context it isn't notable. Someone from the left or right saying "stay the course!" isn't notable by any stretch. Buffs (talk) 16:20, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
Re: "POINTy" I know no such thing. I often add pertinent material to multiple articles that it is appropriate for. The notability is clear and obvious to anyone (or, at least, almost anyone) who isn't hellbent on making sure the information doesn't appear on Wikipedia, as seems to be the case here. Besides, this is not a discussion about whether the information should be added, that is not appropriate for AN/I, this is a discussion about the behavior of the people attempting to whitewash it, and the various policies and norms they have violated, which at this point include WP:Harassment (following me from article to article), WP:NPOV, WP:Sockpuppetry (editing while logged out to avoid scrutiny), possibly WP:Tag team, WP:Casting aspersions (the unfounded claims that I am editing with a political agenda), WP:CENSOR (throughout), and possibly creating a "Joe Job" account. These are not aspersions, evidence is present to support each and every one of these claims. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:04, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken:, I would think the above discussion would make it clear that if consensus isn't established and edits are challenged then the matter is resolved on the talk page before the material is restored. You have instead decided to go full bull in the China shop on both the Right Wing Politics article as well as the Right-wing populism article where you have ignored objections from myself and The Four Deuces while suggesting that consensus was needed to reject new edits. Springee (talk) 00:15, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

There are discussions on two different article talk pages about whether the material is appropriate for including in that article. Some of the arguments made on Talk:Right-wing politics may be applicable to Right-wing populism but not all of them, both because they are two different, but related ,subjects, and because the material in question is presented differently (i.e in a much more integrated manner, with supporting citations from reliable academic sources) on Right-wing populism, while it was added rather baldly (not by me, remember) on Right-wing politics.
In any event, since we're waiting for the culmination of an RfC on Right-wing politics, there is currently no consensus which can be applied to Right-wing populism, and even when the RfC is concluded, whether its decision whould be pertinent to Right-wing populism would depend on why it was excluded from the latter. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:51, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
I don't see any activity that requires consideration here. TFD (talk) 02:48, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
That's not surprising. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:58, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

I give up[edit]

If the Wikipedia editing community doesn't give a shit hill of beans that a handful of like-minded editors are block voting and tag teaming attempting to keep pertinent, sourced information out of some of our controversial, but extremely relevant to the times, articles, so that material they don't agree with is never seen by our readers, why the fuck heck should I care?

It's really a sad day for WP:NPOV when stuff like this happens, especially when it's so blatantly obvious, and the evidence of it is presented, and very few even bother to stir themselves to take action.

Close this, or block me, or whatever anyone wants to do, since we're abandoning our principles there appears to be little interest in enforcing an extremely important policy. The whitewash attempt to prevent pertinent information from appearing in a relevant article will succeed, and Right-wing populism and Right-wing politics will be cleansed of not include anything the self-appointed CENSORS people who oppose the material disapprove of. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:00, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

This was a heartfelt cri de coeur born out of frustration, but it has engendered objections because of the language used. I have endeavored to correct that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:34, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Toys and the pram. Block voting does not decide RfC outcomes, if you make a convincing argument then the RfC closer will side with you. If not then most likely the problem lies in your position not being strong enough. You, of course, know this.--Literaturegeek | [email protected]? 10:32, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
BMK, your comment is dripping with irony. Just a few discussions down you lecture an editor about the need for following consensus and what isn’t harassment etc. [[17]]. Yet here we are with you insisting that the 9:3 and 5:2 discussions against inclusion are just whitewashing and that editors must get a consensus to remove your recent edits vs you needed a consensus for inclusion. Finally, rather than seeking the consensus via discussion you try to bully the process via continuous changes to the basic content with declarations that there is no consensus to remove your latest version of the text. If only you were following the sound advice you were espousing. Springee (talk) 11:33, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Well, I don't know about that. Iwas the one who had to clean up after it (it took three rolls of paper towels), and that sure wasn't irony I was mopping off the floor. (I'll leave the answer as an exercise for the reader.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:28, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Propose a block of BMK for uncivil behavior[edit]

Profanity-laden remarks like this are not helpful, demeaning toward others, and he's been warned repeatedly. Requesting a block. Buffs (talk) 17:41, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Additional instance from today: [18]
Add quote from WP:IUC:
"The following behaviours can contribute to an uncivil environment:
1. Direct rudeness
(a) rudeness, insults, name-calling, gross profanity or indecent suggestions
(b) <N/A>
(c) ill-considered accusations of impropriety
(d) belittling a fellow editor, including the use of judgemental edit summaries or talk-page posts (e.g. "that is the stupidest thing I have ever seen", "snipped crap")
He hits 3 of the first 4. Buffs (talk) 18:09, 11 September 2019 (UTC)


Don't be ridiculous. --JBL (talk) 17:49, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm not being ridiculous. Remarks like his are making this situation more and more uncivil (see definitions added above) Buffs (talk) 18:09, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
As far as I'm concerned, no. Expletives as an expression of frustration are not cause for block. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 18:00, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
See above addition Buffs (talk) 18:09, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
I don't agree with the addition of that material, yes it's sourced but I don't think it's pertinent to the rest of the paragraph. So on the content dispute side of things I'm not with him, but I'm not seeing the edit for which you want him blocked in the same light. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 18:19, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Appreciate the collegial disagreement! Have a good day! Buffs (talk) 19:04, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
FYI blocks are not WP:PUNITIVE and that is what is being proposed here. MarnetteD|Talk 18:23, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm well aware of what blocks are for. Perpetually failing to follow WP:CIVIL and preventing further problems should be on the table. Buffs (talk) 19:02, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
You've been making a lot of non-constructive edits to ANI in the last few days; I think you should take a break from it. --JBL (talk) 19:05, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
I disagree. YMMV. Buffs (talk) 20:33, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
This is a terrible idea and OP should be trouted for suggesting it.--Jorm (talk) 18:24, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
I'll take a fish, but let's WP:AGF here, shall we? Buffs (talk) 19:02, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Frustration is allowed. Buffs, when the (to you) offensive comment is actually at ANI itself, it's pretty redundant to "helpfully" list what's wrong with it in your opinion. Do you seriously think admins haven't seen it? Remarks like your proposal lower the tone of ANI worse than the odd heartfelt profanity. Bishonen | talk 19:12, 11 September 2019 (UTC).
    I don't care about the profanity, per se. It's a symptom, not the root problem. It's the uncivil remarks. From the last set of remarks alone...
    "the Wikipedia editing community doesn't give a shit" WP:IUC 1a, 1c, 1d
    "a handful of like-minded editors are block voting" WP:IUC 1a, 1c, 1d
    "[a handful of like-minded editors are] tag teaming" WP:IUC 1a, 1c, 1d
    "so that material they don't agree with is never seen by our readers" WP:IUC 1c
    "evidence of it is presented, and very few even bother to stir themselves to take action" WP:IUC 1a, 1c, 1d
    "we're abandoning our principles" WP:IUC 1c
    "The whitewash will succeed" WP:IUC 1c
    "Right-wing populism and Right-wing politics will be cleansed of anything the self-appointed CENSORS disapprove of" WP:IUC 1a, 1c, 1d
    Until we crack down on civility problems, we're going to continue to drive away inexperienced editors. There's no time like the present... Buffs (talk) 19:25, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose proposal to Block or otherwise sanction BMK. BMK is reminded that sometimes frustration and hyperbole are a bad mix. BMK's passion sometimes results in over exuberance that comes out badly during discussions.-- Deepfriedokra 19:39, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Not at this time I do think BMK's recent editing and talk page behavior has left much to be desired. They have ignored CONSENSUS and ONUS and their accusations directed at me and others are certainly not CIVIL. However, I don't think they have risen to the point of needed a block. A simple reminder should be sufficient. Disclaimer - I was cited by BMK in the opening of this wreck of an ANI. Springee (talk) 20:03, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
    Indeed. BMK. Do have a care, and please be mindfull of AGF and ASPERSIONS. Such hurtfulness is not helpful. One's opinions should stand/fall on their merits/demerits.-- Deepfriedokra 20:12, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
    If it gets the job done, a simple admonishment is fine. I'm only looking for the behavior to stop. Buffs (talk) 20:33, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
    @Deepfriedokra: still ongoing. Your thoughts?
  • Oppose - I don't really agree with BMK's behavior in this specific instance but I don't think it rises to the level of warranting a block. Sure, he shouldn't have used profanity but I think that we should just try and hash this out here first and reserve a block for a last resort only if that's the only way to prevent major disruption or incivility. Michepman (talk) 01:13, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment Incivility is continuing: [19] Buffs (talk) 22:31, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
  • ???? Imploring an editor to properly indent their comments is "incivility"? Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:09, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
  • You appear to have a highly optimistic opinion of a condescending remarks like that. Buffs (talk) 02:22, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • "Optimistic"? Are you sure you weren't thinking of another word? Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:57, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • I meant what I said. Perhaps you shouldn't be so critical of others. Buffs (talk) 02:39, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
  • BMK, please refactor your comments after you have a chance to reflect upon them. Editing conflicts can be upsetting, but you will be best served by removing or striking comments that are unproductive. Please use dispute resolution instead, if there are problems yet to be addressed. Obviously, no block of BMK is needed here. Buffs, please avoid requesting a block. Simply point out the problem and ask for help resolving it without assuming what the correct solution might be. Jehochman Talk 02:36, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • @Jehochman: What, exactly, in this comment, addressed to Springee:
"Are you ever going to learn how to properly indent your comments, or are other editors going to have to continue to clean up after you for the rest of your Wikipedia career?"
do you consider uncivil and wish me to refactor, considering that Springee's talk page comments were consistently wrongly indented, making it difficult to follow the discussion (although Springee has gotten a lot better since I made that remark)? Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:57, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, I was not clear. I'm speaking about the initial diff complained about in this thread.[20] Jehochman Talk 12:55, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
OK, I understand now. I have struck out any parts that I think may have been found objectionable, and replaced them with more suitablle language. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:37, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
@Jehochman:, I respectfully disagree. IMHO, this sort of incivility is rampant in WP and needs to be addressed, but YMMV. I've placed my concerns here and above and elsewhere. I also suggested a remedy. If the community disagrees, I can accept that and even revel in it. Buffs (talk) 04:25, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for your thoughts. Take a look at XY problem for an explanation of why it's better to focus on the problem at first, rather than a proposed solution. Jehochman Talk 12:55, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
@Jehochman: Ah, I think you're misreading my intent here. My call for a block is only tangentially related to this dispute (of which I'm not a part); it's only related in that this is one venue where such issues from BMK exist (and continue here at ANI and elsewhere). I recognize this doesn't solve the problem at the various pages mentioned at the beginning. Buffs (talk) 15:16, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • AN/I topic ban instead – A block would seem unnecessarily punitive. A better idea would be a topic ban against BMK at AN/I. He is in the top 2 most prolific contributors here, and his contributions come in two main flavors, both a net negative to the project: (1) stirring up trouble, calling for blocks, etc., instead of taking a more productive approach to discussing problems (e.g. like what he did to me); and (2) using AN/I as his own personal way to solicit help in his content disputes, as in the case that brought us here. Both of these should just stop, and a temporary block is unlikely to accomplish that. Ban him from AN/I (and AN, where he's the #1 contributor), except in cases brought by others that involve him. Dicklyon (talk) 16:57, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Propose to inflict Paine upon BMK[edit]

I didn't think that was a profanity-laced rant, so much as a profanity-sprinkled rant. This is a profanity-laced rant.

Anyway, Bannon's quote, "Let them call you racist...", is a riff on an old American saying, "Let them call me rebel", which comes from what are, according to legendary scholar Levivich, some of the greatest words ever written in the English language, Thomas Paine's The Crisis (text): "Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul by swearing allegiance to one, whose character is that of a stupid, stubborn, worthless, brutish man." Now that is a PA against King George III. BMK, by contrast, hasn't made any PAs against any specific editors from what I've seen. Rather, he's made hand-wavy general comments about a vast right-wing conspiracy, which hasn't worked out any better for BMK than it did for a certain American politician, but is no reason to block.

So, BMK, in the words of Paine: "I dwell not upon the vapors of imagination; I bring reason to your ears, and, in language as plain as A, B, C, hold up truth to your eyes." Bannon said "Let them call you racist...", and you added that quote to Steve Bannon, National Rally (France), Right-wing populism and Right-wing politics. You got some pushback at the latter two, but no one's disturbed it at the former two. This tends to disprove your theory that there is a concerted effort to keep this quote out of Wikipedia; rather it's just crowd-sourced editing, i.e., consensus working as normal. This is no reason to give up. To partially quote another writer who is not quite as good as Paine, but still pretty damn good: "something something fighting tooth and nail against multiple editors something something almost entirely based on their personal view of things something something Wikipedia's consensus-based model." 'nuff said.

Therefore, I propose we bring BMK a ladder and a change of clothes, help him down from the Reichstag, let those RfCs run, and call it a day. Because, as Paine wrote in Common Sense (text): "It is not in numbers, but in unity, that our great strength lies". Levivich 00:17, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Makes (common) sense to me. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:40, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
The push to put this quote in so many places doesn't due BMK any credit. It's clear they want it in because, when taken out of context, it's inflammatory. It's very notable that BMK didn't add the context of the speech. Yes, they added the audience but not how the quote was used in the delivered speech. It appears that when the editor couldn't "win" at the other two articles they went off to "win" other places. Perhaps self reflection is the best answer here. Springee (talk) 03:45, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
The context that was provided for the Bannon quote, to show that it was not "taken out of context".
All the necessary context was provided, such as this, which was in the "Definition" section of Right-wing populism until it was removed by Springee (first removal, of entire section; second removal, of Bannon quote only):

Erik Berggren and Andres Neergard in "Populism: Protest, democratic challenge and right wing sxtremism" write "Most researchers agree ... that xenophobia, anti-immigration sentiments, nativism, ethno-nationalism and racism are, in different ways, central elements in the ideologies, politics, and practices of right-wing populism and Extreme Right Wing Parties."[34] Cas Mudde and Cristóbal Rovira Kaltwasser, in their Populism: A Very Short Introduction, note that in European right-wing populism there is a "marriage of convenience" of populism based on an "ethnic and chauvinistic definition of the people", authoritarianism, and nativism. This results in right-wing populism having a "xenophobic nature." Mudde and Kaltwasser cite the French National Front as the "prototypical populist radical right-wing party".[35] In March 2018, in what has been described as a "populist pep talk"[36] at a National Front party congress, Steve Bannon, former advisor to Donald Trump before and after his election, advised those present to "Let them call you racist, let them call you xenophobes, let them call you nativists. Wear it like a badge of honor."[37] [21]

or this version, from the Steve Bannon article:

At a party congress in March 2018, Bannon gave members of the French right-wing populist National Front (NF) what has been described as a "populist pep talk".[150] Bannon advised the party members to "Let them call you racist, let them call you xenophobes, let them call you nativists. Wear it like a badge of honor. Because every day, we get stronger and they get weaker. ... Hstory is on our side and will bring us victory." Bannon's remarks brought the members to their feet.[250][251][252][253] Critics expressed concern that Bannon was "normalizing racism."[254] Bannon generally considers charges of racism made against the right to be the result of a biased media.[255]

What more context could be required? Each version is specifically geared to the article it appeared in, so that the "Definition" version has academic sources to support it, while the others are straight-forward reporting with no interpretation, and multiple sources to confirm the content and context of the speech. I fail to see any way in which I took the quote out of context. Reading any of the various articles about the speech -- such as this one from the NYTimes --will confirm that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:52, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Yet in both cases consensus was against including. Not "Springee alone opposed". In both cases you tried to push inclusion when other editors objected and thus violated CONSENSUS. If so many editors say no, then you really need to ask why. The way that helps the most is to go to the talk page and discuss rather than make POINTy edits. Springee (talk) 10:21, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
That is incorrect there was no consensus. You have consistently misrepresented the situation, just as in this discussion you misrepresented that the quote was "taken out of context". Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:31, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
And you circle back. First, per policy (NOCON) if there isn't consensus the edits revert. I say there was consensus for removal, you say there was no consensus. Either way, policy says we do the same thing, revert to the earlier version of the text. You claim the quotes weren't out of context but other editors disagree. Springee (talk) 16:23, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Are you ever going to learn how to properly indent your comments, or are other editors going to have to continue to clean up after you for the rest of your Wikipedia career? Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:49, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
OK but it's in unity that our great :strength lies–just as true for building a nation as for building an encyclopedia. We make a shitty encyclopedia when we fight all the time. That's how we end up with articles like "Levivich is an American[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14] ...".
A notable guy said a notable thing; the world took note of it. Do we document it? Where do we document it? How do we document it? We should be able to have that conversation (WP:BRD) and it should look something like this:
Editor A: I think we should document it here, like this.
Editor B: I think we should document it there, like that.
Editor C: I think we should document it here, like that.
discussion proceeds...
...but instead, it too often looks like this:
Editor A: I think we should document it here, like this.
Editor B: I think we should document it there, like that.
Editor A: I think you're a Nazi.
Editor B: I think you're an asshole.
Editor C: Both of you fuck off.
I think it stems from favoring simple binary presentations that we can "!vote" on, rather than open-ended discussions. It's bold/revert, support/oppose, keep/delete–that's how we like to break things down, but it divides us. So we have binary edit wars and RfCs with binary choices on multiple articles, satisfying nobody, and yet rarely have just a brainstorming session about "where do we put this Bannon thing?" Brainstorming, open-ended (rather than adversarial) source analysis, and pre-RfC discussions are too rare, especially in DS areas like AP2, because charged topic areas lead to a lack of AGF, and it's hard to have a conversation with a Nazi and an asshole. Heck, just try talking to Levivich 04:31, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Yes, but also consider Arrow's impossibility theorem, which holds that when a group is presented with more than two choices, there is no voting system that will ensure that the outcome reflect's the group's actual preferences. Given this, RfC's are more likely to represent the views of the group voting on them when the choice provided is binary. (And, of course, the group that is !voting only has a chance of representing the views of the larger community when impediments such as block voting and canvassing, which skew the vote in a particular direction, are eliminated, a condition difficult to get to when strong POVs -- especially political POVs -- are a motivating factor in the !voting, as is the case here.)
And to circle back to the beginning of this section for a moment, sure, Bannon's "populist pep talk" to the National Front that brought the party members to their feet is the rhetorical equivalent of Paine's "Let them call me rebel...", but the difference comes in what lies behind the words. Paine was rebelling against a polity that was preventing his people from (in the words of another dude) achieving "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", while Bannon is admitting that right-wing populists are called xenophobes, nativists, and racists, and, rather than rejecting these labels, they should own them, because "history is on our side" and victory will be theirs. There is a substantive qualitative difference between the morality of Paine's words and that of Bannon's.
And given that, one has to wonder why some Wikipedia editors are working overtime and pulling out every trick in the book to prevent Bannon's words from appearing in an article that they are obviously pertinent to. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:20, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
And it more and more obvious that it not just Bannon's words, Springee just doesn't want it explicitly said that right-wing populism is about xenophobia, racism, and authoritarianism, among other delightful things. She just removed a quote I added from a historian who said basically that. This is quite clearly POV editing in blatant violation of WP:NPOV.
If experts on a subject say "X", then we report "X", and it's irrelevant whether they say it in a journal article, a book published by a university press, a book published by a commercial publisher, a media outlet, or their own personal blog. The reliable source involved is the expert, and there is absolutely no excuse for Springee to remove it from the article, as they did here. This behavior needs to stop. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:45, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
It's clear, BMK, that you think this quote is illuminating and revealing. But why does it need to appear in 4 different articles? Because that's what it seems like you are fighting so hard for. Not for its mere inclusion in an article where it is relevant, but your insistence that it appears in 4 different articles which might be, well, a little repetitive considering the overlap in the subjects. Can't you see the inclusion of this article in two articles as a "win"? Because, at the end of the day, even the most successful editors don't get their way 100% of the time. Surely, a 50% success rate on this one quote shouldn't be enough to cause you to walk away from editing Wikipedia. Liz Read! Talk! 02:59, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Obviously, because it's pertinent to three articles. (I've given up on Right-wing politics): Steve Bannon, who said it and because it reveals the nature of his thoughts, the National Front, who he said it to and whose members accepted it with their acclamation, and Right-wing populism which is what the quote is about. As I said above, I frequently add the same information to multiple articles if it is pertinent to more than one. And, really, the only strong overlap between these three articles is between the "National Front", a right-wing populist party, and "Right-wing populism", an overview article. Bannon is much, much more than simply a right-wing populist, and he had no real connection to the National Front until that particular appearance.
To answer your questions - no ,I never expect 100% success - I've been around here too long and have edited too much to hold such an unreasonable expectation -- and, as I said, I've already given up on it appearing in Right-wing politics, having de facto accepted the argument that it didn't represent the full range of that subject. But as for the others - well, the Bannon article is an obvious place for it to be, the NF article is an obvious place for it to be, but the nature of the quote, and the insight it offers into the nature of right-wing populism, means that it's really not a "win" if it's not in that article, and, really, it should be in the "Definition" section, not stuck down in the "France" section.
Bannon's uncensored acceptance of the xenophobic, nativist and racist nature of right-wing populism, the idea that brought the crowd to its feet, is an extraordinary admission for someone to have made. These are things that Marine le Pen, in her attempts to "de-demonize" the party and take it mainstream, has sought to avoid having the public identify with the NF. She would never have made the candid admission that Bannon did and told her people to own those attributes as a badge of honor. That is why it's so important that it's not dry academics saying these things, it's someone who says "Be proud of being a xenophobe! Wear your racism as a badge of honor. When people call you a nativist, say 'Yes I am a nativist, and proud of it!'" Those thoughts, expressed in the way that Bannon expressed them, are powerful, which is why Springee and company don't want them in the article. Because they're true and they're enlightening and they're powerful. They need to be in Right-wing populism for all the reasons that Springee so desperately wants them not to be. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:05, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
@Liz: BTW, when you say "this quote", I assume you're talking about the Bannon quote. I just want to note that in the comment just above yours, I pointed out that I added a quote from a different person, and Springee and company are now trying to prevent it from appearing in the article [22], revealing once again the POV nature of their editing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:12, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
BMK, remember that CONSENSUS is policy. If you make a change and other editors object then POLICY says try to get consensus for the change. If consensus doesn't exist, the change is reverted. Note it doesn't say consensus to revert, it says consensus is required to keep the change. You can make your case on the talk page. Thus far I've objected on several grounds. Other editors can weight in. If they disagree with me then I think you will have your consensus. If they don't then you don't have consensus. Springee (talk) 04:16, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Hey, the argument you made that the Shenkman quote "failed varification" just fell to pieces. See my note on the article talk page, where I explain that you can download Rosenberg's paper and in it there is absolutely no sign of the language that Shenkman used, because that was Shenkman's gloss on what right-wing populism has to offer the common man after the failure of the elites, and not Rosenberg's, as you insisted it was.
I suggest, that with the high visibility of this discussion, and the number of people now watching Right-wing populism, you would be best advised not to go around deleting properly sourced pertinent information simply because you disagree with it. Such very public blatant violations of WP:NPOV can lead to problems. And, remember, your behavior - among others - is what this report is about, not the content dispute, which you keep dragging into it. It's your attempt to use every trick you can come up with to keep information you object to out of articles, because your personal POV opposes it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:27, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
I don't comment here often, & I don't usually even read long discussions here about things like US politics, but the cleverness of Levich's replies attracted me to read this. Looking also at the articles, I think it's very clear that the quote (in full context) is appropriate in the articles on Bannon and the National Front: it shows his views, and it shows theirs. Right wing populism is a more general matter than the views of either, & it is not as clear that it sufficient encapsulates the entire movement--personally I think it pretty much does, but it's not as obvious. DGG ( talk ) 18:44, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
+1 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 20:16, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
@DGG: Thank you for that considered opinion. I would remind you that the Definition section of the article cites numerous reliable sources which confirm that the attributes cited by Shenkman and used by Bannon are intrinsically part of right-wing populism, hence the use of both of these quotes is both justified and supported.
Do you have any thoughts on the question of whether Springee and other editors attempting to block the use of the Bannon and Shenkman quotes are doing so out of a personal political POV, in violation of WP:NPOV? Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:33, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
@DGG: Fixing ping. Please see previous comment. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:38, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Reading the definition section, this particular set of three is nowhere given as the essential characteristics. (There's even an explicit denial of "racism", xenophobia is mentioned but not emphasised , and there's discussion of carious meanings of nativism.) The part I think makes most sense is "a cluster of categories since the parties differ in ideology, organization and leadership rhetoric". Attempts at exact definition of political movements usually cause confusion. The key point of what Bannon said is not the terms he used, but the defiant challenge to conventional political morality.
Much more important, I refuse to assume that the personal political POV of any of the editors here is the motivation for the arguments. You need to think more about the meaning of NPA. DGG ( talk ) 00:13, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Actually, I "assumed" nothing - I don't recall knowing Springee's edits from any earlier time. I have , however, observed editing from a strong political POV, in the articles mentioned here. I'm sorry you disagree with that, but that is what it is.
Your gloss on the definition of right-wing populism is, I think somewhat off, but that is (again) not for discussion here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:23, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
At a bare minimum, from past interactions, Springee seems to have a problem confusing policy with WP:IDONTLIKEIT and advocating for (yes I'll agree with Beyond My Ken) WP:CENSORing things that they don't like. Bannon is notable. Bannon is, particularly, notable as a populist leader [23]. Bannon said notable things to a particular group the National Front that is described and sourced in the Right-wing populism article as "prototypical populist radical right-wing party". That there is even a question here does not appear to me due to policy. It certainly looks like Springee is filibustering and misrepresenting both wording and policies in service of a WP:IDONTLIKEIT point of view.
Also, an edit like this[24] by Springee, after Beyond My Ken wrote several paragraphs and checked both the article and sources to make sure that it was Shenkman's own words and not something he was quoting or summarizing, I believe is an attempt to goad Beyond My Ken. It appears similar to Sealioning. 6YearsTillRetirement (talk) 18:08, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

────────────────────── 6Years, by posting here you open your self up for review. You are a new account as of less than 2 months back[[25]]. Your first edit wasn't a typical grammar fix or adding a fact to an article. No, it was the creation of an AFD page! [[26]] Yes, new editors always open with an AfD discussion. Slatersteven was rightly suspicious and asked you about your history here, did you have a prior account [[27]]. You gave an evasive answer. Based on comments from another editor I repeated Slaterseven's question. After that you pinged Doug Weller [[28]] then started following me to other articles [[29]]. HOUND may not have been your intent but it was hardly the advice Doug Weller gave you. So are you here because you have a legitimate complaint or because you are hoping to pile onto someone who suggested that your behavior certainly looks like you had a prior account? Perhaps we shouldn't answer and just let someone kill this train wreck.Springee (talk) 18:28, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

I believe I have a right to comment on your behavior and how it is coming across (whether you intend it that way or not), and I note that you started targeting me with your accusations in apparent retaliation for Bishonen's topic ban of JWeiss11 very shortly after you commented there. I don't think I need to answer any of your insinuations further.[30] 6YearsTillRetirement (talk) 19:09, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Is this the topic ban you are talking about? I'm not sure what I said that bothered you [[31]]. Springee (talk) 19:35, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
It's the fact that you began running around accusing me of being a sockpuppet very shortly after your post there, showing that you were trying to continue Jweiss11's attack [32]. First at my talk page, then you ran off to another person's talk page, now you're doing it here. 6YearsTillRetirement (talk) 16:33, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
WP:DUCK applies here... Buffs (talk) 19:38, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Then file an SPI report if you believe it's so obvious, and stop WP:Casting aspersions without specific evidence to support your opinion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:27, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Not only is Buffs wrong (and seems to be deliberately doing this trying to get an angry response from me), I have proof. [33] 6YearsTillRetirement (talk) 22:33, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
My evidence is based on 6Years' edit history. He's clearly not new to WP and seems to have a sudden, inordinate attention solely focused on this article. As such, both WP:SPA and WP:SOCK apply. I base this on behavior. The "evidence" provided doesn't "prove" anything. It's one editor's opinion on a narrow subject line, not the current issue. Furthermore, the account assessed was not 6Years' latest account, so it was made prior to comments here. My point's been made and can be actioned here if an admin deems it necessary; this will be my last comment on the subject. Buffs (talk) 15:22, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Propose closing this thread[edit]

This is nothing more that an open sewer of an ANI. Would an admin please close it. Springee (talk) 19:50, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

The nature of the mess at AN/I and AN is driven by the most prolific contributors there. At AN, BMK is #1, and at AN/I he's #2, last I checked. A good step toward making it less of a "sewer" would be to remove his effluent at its source. This thread he started is an example of the problem, and a chance to address it. Dicklyon (talk) 17:34, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Returning to the purpose of this report[edit]

Another data point in the nominal topic of this (overall) thread, which is behavioral problems. Consider this edit by Springee on Talk:Right-wing populism in which they reject xenophobia, racism, authoritarianism etc. as "alarmist" terms, this despite the fact that the Definition section offers numerous scholarly analyses which say that these things are intrinsic to right-wing populism. "Most researchers agree [...] that xenophobia, anti-immigration sentiments, nativism, ethno-nationalism are, in different ways, central elements in the ideologies, politics, and practices of right-wing populism and Extreme Right Wing Parties" is how one puts it. Despite this, Spingee views these attributes as merely "alarmist" terms, used to scare people about the bogeyman of right-wing populism. This is a very strong indication that Springee is editing not for neutrality or accuracy, but from a personal political point of view. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:33, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

TWO people said that "most researchers agree" and are "practices of right-wing populism and Extreme Right Wing Parties". You're stretching here. At this point, you are trying to equate via WP:SYN that popular right wing people are inherently racist, et al. That's absurd on its face. Buffs (talk) 22:40, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Not "two people", two reliable sources, one of which summarized what "most researchers agree" on - and if you look at the paragraphs above that one, you'll see other academics (like Cas Mudde) who agree. If you think that they are all incorrect, then please come up with neutral reliable sources that say that right-wing populism is not xenophobic, racist, authoritarian, nativist, enthno-nationalist etc. I don't think you'll be able to, because -- as the rest of the Definition section shows -- these attributes are commonly cited by academics.
But, I do note that you're talking about the content dispute, when this report and this section are about behavior, specifically whether Springee and other editors are editing from a personal political point of view, and are not editing neutrally. Do you have anything to add to that, as opposed to attempting to litigate what belongs on the article talk page? Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:08, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
I have to agree that there is problem conduct by Springee. This [34] was way over the line on the part of Springee. Particularly vexatious is comments like [35] that show WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behavior when Beyond My Ken had already written quite a thoughtful response on why Shenkman's comment was not simply a paraphrasing or summation of Rosenberg's. The reply "No you haven't"[36] which is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes level behavior. When Springee did finally provide a quote (after first insisting they had when they hadn't [37]), the quote did not satisfy the wording nor back up what Springee said [38]. In that discussion Springee has also continuously ignored Drmies' admonition that "There is no such thing as a "scholarly section"" and keeps on insisting that Shenkman, despite being the author of the piece, cannot be quoted because despite being in a WP:RS and Shenkman undeniably being a repeatedly published, recognized topic expert on the grounds that it isn't a scholarly journal. I can't decide fully whether that's a Moving the goalposts issue or WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, but it's part of an overall WP:IDONTLIKEIT problem that's manifesting as a combination of WP:BATTLEGROUND and Sealioning-looking behavior. Regardless, the net effect seems to be that Springee is hoping to provoke someone into crossing a line, and when others aren't biting on their bait, Springee themselves are getting flustered and then crossing the line. 6YearsTillRetirement (talk) 22:22, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Color me a little skeptical on your edit history, but this looks like a WP:SPA. Buffs (talk) 22:30, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Do you have an actual comment on the specific links I provided to illustrate the pattern, or are you just trying to attack me personally hoping you'll get a reaction? 6YearsTillRetirement (talk) 22:42, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
You know, Buffs, that being a SPA isn't actually against any policies. Most editors start editing a specific topic area and later, some (but not all) became generalists. But there are many editors who persist in focusing on specific interests like politics, football, anime, music or wrestling. Liz Read! Talk! 01:33, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Look at editor's history...WP:DUCK applies in spades. I'm not against WP:SPAs per se, but the focus of this one appears to be harassment. Buffs (talk) 19:41, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
@Buffs:You're wrong, you're out of line, and you seem to just be hoping that you can get me to respond in an angry way. I'm no sockpuppet.[39] 6YearsTillRetirement (talk) 22:30, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
So...a link to comments of another user that don't pertain to you or this situation? I'll stand by my assessment. Buffs (talk) 02:35, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Quoth Drmies, regarding me: "plus the editor who initiated it is, as far as we can tell, not a sock, and I happen to know this was already investigated.". Now stop it. All you're doing is proving you can't be civil. 6YearsTillRetirement (talk) 13:54, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
(ec) You are alleging editors pushing a POV. I think, to the contrary, that you are pushing POV and it's quite obvious. It's impossible to state that without explaining the points which support such an opinion. Likewise, you (and the RS author) are conflating "right wing" with "extremists"/"extreme right wing" as if there is no difference; there most certainly is. I disagree with 6Years' assessment. Buffs (talk) 22:28, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm pushing a POV? Nope. I am reporting the opinions of subject experts that right-wing populism is xenophobic, authoritarian, and racist, among other things. The POV editor is the one attempting to move heaven and earth to prevent those assessments from appearing in the article on right-wing populism. That's really the bottom line here: a POV editor does not want the views of subject experts to be included in an article on the subject because they disagree with them, calling them "alarmist". Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:03, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
The opinions espoused here are literally saying that half of the US (for example) is racist, alarmist, authoritarian. Those creating these papers are either highly partisan or attempting to conflate analysis. Those citing these sources here are (intentionally) conflating extreme views with the mainstream conservatism. Buffs (talk) 19:44, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Your statement is ridiculous on its face. "Half of the US" are not right-wing populists, even if something under half of the electorate voted for a right-wing populist presidential candidate (which was hardly obvious at the time of the election) -- but in any case, we report what reliable sources say, regardless of what your personal assessment is of what they say. If you think they're incorrect, find reliable sources that say otherwise, don't make arguments based on your personal beliefs or analysis, which would clearly be WP:OR.
Again, to return to the proper subject of this report, what we see in the comment above is that the objection to the disputed material isn't based on anything but the personal political POVs of the editors attempting to prevent the material from being used. They disagree with what is being said because it contradicts their own ideologies, not because the material isn't properly sourced or is irrelevant to the subject matter. They think it's "alarmist", for instance, and come up with other silly unsupported arguments. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:13, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
I was considering a reply to Buffs but the entirety of Buffs' last statement has nothing to do with this report and seems to just constitute WP:IDONTLIKEIT with respect to content. 6YearsTillRetirement (talk) 22:29, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
I think there are several purposes to many of the posts here. One is to attempt to show that I am a bad actor by pointing out what is obvious to them, which is that the information from reliable sources I'm attempting to add is just plain flat out wrong, and also dangerous, and shouldn't be added because of that. They do this because that's what their ideological stances tell them is the case, and they cannot see beyond those POVs.
The other is to muddy the waters as much as possible, by returning again and again to the content dispute -- which is not the subject of this report, and which do not get handled at AN/I -- in order to deflect from the charges I am reporting here, of editing in a POV manner without regard for neutrality, which is the actual subject at hand. By referencing the content dispute over and over again, they hope to create the impression that this is all about content, and not about their behavior, and thereby get the report closed or ignored. It's an effective tactic, because the report gets lengthier and lengthier, with more and more sidebars and ancilliary discussions, so they can then pop up to say that the whole thing is an "open sewer" and ask for the report to be closed without action. [40].
Attacking you is simply a continuation by other means of the earlier incidents in this case: the IP reverting my article edit who was a signed-out editor, and the blatantly obvious Joe job account which showed up with a name that attacked Buffs and conspicuously agreed with me, with the intent of getting people to think that I might be behind the imposter (which I wasn't). Same same. Deflection and muddying-the-water. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:14, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
You cannot just say "<Content X> is from a reliable source and should therefore be included". Context is everything. WP:SYN needs to be considered. etc, etc, etc. That you keep adding this nonsense IS the problem. That isn't a content dispute, but a behavioral problem. That you choose to do so in the condescending manner you've done is also indicative of other issues such as a lack of civility. Buffs (talk) 02:33, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
The Bannon quote material, as it currently exists in the "France" section of Right-wing populism:

When the party was at a low point because of Le Pen's disappointing result in the presidential election and concerns about her ability to govern the party[106] Steve Bannon, former advisor to Donald Trump before and after his election, gave NF members at a party congress in March 2018 what has been described as a "populist pep talk".[106] Bannon advised the party members to "Let them call you racist, let them call you xenophobes, let them call you nativists. Wear it like a badge of honor. Because every day, we get stronger and they get weaker. ... History is on our side and will bring us victory." Bannon's remarks brought the members to their feet.[107][108][109]

All necessary context is provided, and there is not a lick of SYNTH, just a bunch of reliable sources to support every single fact reported.
But here you are again, bringing up CONTENT here, when this report is about BEHAVIOR, such as -- come to think of it --the attempts by you and Springee to deflect the focus of this discussion away from behavior by constantly bringing up content. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:10, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
And yet his analysis remains spot-on, Buffs. You and Springee have continually tried to argue the content here, rather than participate in the discussion of content in the appropriate place, all the while insultingly casting aspersions yourself. You even started tag-teaming me, accusing me of being a sockpuppet after I provided the linked evidence showing Springee I'm not and casting aspersions on me, I can only assume in hopes of getting an angry reaction so that you could cry for "civility". And when you make statements like "The opinions espoused here are literally saying that half of the US (for example) is racist, alarmist, authoritarian" and "Those creating these papers are either highly partisan or attempting to conflate analysis", all you do is show us that your objection is not based in policy but rather in WP:IDONTLIKEIT. 6YearsTillRetirement (talk) 02:51, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for being dragged into this. I have issues with both users involved here. Both seem to be warriors for truth. Atr this time I think an IBAN is in order, and hopefully they will leave each other alone.Slatersteven (talk) 09:16, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

I am not here as a warrior for truth, I am here to provide accurate, relevant, and reliably sourced information to our readers. Others are attempting to prevent such material from appearing in one of our articles, based only on the fact that they disagree with it, or don't like it, or find it "alarmist". That's not editing neutrally, that editing from a POV.
For myself, although they will almost certainly not believe this, if the material in question had said exactly the opposite, I would still be trying to add it to the article, because it would still be relevant and reliably sourced, and our readers deserve to know it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:35, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Elephant in the room[edit]

Why isn't this matter at WP:AE under the American potitics 2, standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people at WP:General sanctions? Buffs has said The opinions espoused here are literally saying tha t half of the US (for example) is racist, alarmist, authoritarian. [41] At least the portions of this article that deal with American right wing populism are covered, are they not? If this article is not covered by the general sanction, perhaps it should be and an arbitration clarification or modification is needed. I don't see WP:ANI resolving this type of dispute because it's just going to flare up repeatedly without stronger measures and controls. Jehochman Talk 13:15, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

As this is about Steve Bannon, who is most certainly an AP2 covered figure, I can't see how AP2 wouldn't apply. Simonm223 (talk) 13:22, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
This thread is so long and hairy that it probably won't generate a clear consensus here. Why don't we check if the users have received the required notifications, and give any that are needed. If notice has been given, the participants are welcome to file reports at WP:AE if they wish, but keep in mind the behavior of all involved in a report may be scrutinized. Jehochman Talk 13:26, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
I mean, yeah. That'd be a good start. Simonm223 (talk) 13:30, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Well, I think Beyond My Ken was correct in analysis then @Jehochman:, "By referencing the content dispute over and over again, they hope to create the impression that this is all about content, and not about their behavior, and thereby get the report closed or ignored. It's an effective tactic, because the report gets lengthier and lengthier, with more and more sidebars and ancilliary discussions, so they can then pop up to say that the whole thing is an "open sewer" and ask for the report to be closed without action. [61]." And here we are, with "this thread is so long and hairy..." because of two editors (Springee and Buffs) who consistently and constantly tried to bring up content while their conduct (such as [42], or claiming to have answered questions they haven't [43], or vexatiously accusing people of being sockpuppets) is the issue. 6YearsTillRetirement (talk) 13:55, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
They are both being noticed about discretionary sanctions. Should they proceed to violate the notice, the next report should go to WP:AE. Let's hope that won't be necessary. Jehochman Talk 14:01, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Also, feel free to report anybody here at WP:AE if disruption is ongoing. If they have ceased, wait to see if the behavior resumes. I am not making a judgment one way or the other about any editor at this time. Jehochman Talk 14:11, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
I second this motion. I appreciate the notice on my talk page and, to be blunt, don't know why it hasn't been enforced sooner. Send this to AE should any of it continue and let's move on. Buffs (talk) 15:07, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
I guess I have to place the note here that Buffs just called me a troll[44] in addition to all the false insinuations trying to "obliquely" call me a sockpuppet. Conduct, again. 6YearsTillRetirement (talk) 19:01, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
No, you don't. Buffs (talk) 19:06, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • @Jehochman: I did consider whether this would fall under AP2 or not. Obviously, Bannon is (or was) a major current AP2 figure, but the articles under discussion -- originally Right-wing politics and now Right-wing populism -- have a world-wide focus, and in fact are much more European- and Latin American-centric than they are about US poltics, even though US politics are certainly part of both. For this reason I thought that AN/I was a better venue for discussion of behavioral problems in these articles, despite Bannon being American.
    An additional consideration is that the campaign to prevent certain material from appearing in right-wing populism has spread beyond the Bannon quote to a quote by writer-historian Rick Shenkman (founder of the History News Network, now part of Georgetown University), who, wile he is American, is not a AP2 figure by any definition, and whose quote was not about American politics, but about right-wing populism world wide. The article the Shenkman quote came from discusses a paper that American political psychologist Shawn Rosenberg delivered at a conference in Lisbon, the scope of which, while again discussing American politics, was right-wing populism in general.
    Despite my initial decision to come here, if the collective community wisdom is that this issue is best dealt with at AE under the AP2 umbrella, I accept that, and will file an AE report if the attempts to keep out this properly sourced and relevant material continue. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:26, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
If the material in dispute relates to American politics, regardless of the article having a broader scope, I think AE is a good venue. If the content is strictly non-US, then you are right that this is the venue. You may still consider one of the more specialized noticeboards. I would come here only as a last resort when you can't find another other place to go. As you can see, the heavy traffic of comments by whoever is watching this page can produce a noise to signal ratio that's not ideal. Jehochman Talk 21:30, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I have certainly noticed that. Thanks for the advice about the specialized noticeboards, which, frankly, I hadn't considered, but probably should have, NPOVN in particular. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:49, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Request Ban of Reddragon7 per NOTHERE[edit]

Bishonen has blocked Reddragon7 indefinitely. Still seeking ways to block paid editing companies. Liz Read! Talk! 01:26, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reddragon7 is a disclosed paid editor who has created and submitted many drafts through AfC which I have come across while reviewing submissions. They disclose being a freelancer and accepted jobs through the website "WikiPresence" which not only offers to create Wikipedia pages, but also offers to create press for such. I asked them previously about using references that don't mention the subject they are writing about as well as unreliable sources such as Medium. The response I feel was canned and normal of a paid editor who is WP:NOTHERE. To be clear, there are paid editors who can follow the rules, but I don't feel Reddragon7 can do that. The reason being is that the majority of their submission through AfC are being rejected for things like advertising, notability, and referencing (the last one I rejected was for WP:REFBOMBING which included sources that didn't even discuss the subject of the draft title). Submissions which constantly don't meet Wikipedia guidelines causes extra work for those of us reviewing drafts at AfC and would request a ban of this user since they can't seem to get that we are here to build an encyclopedia, not review and correct submissions that are paid for and don't comply with guidelines. --CNMall41 (talk) 20:01, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I've looked at their paid work. There are two problems: First, they accept commissions from subjects that are extremely unlikely to be notable (such as this one and thisone, and about 2/3 of his attempted articles. Second, whether or not the subject is likely to be notable, most of the references used are straight PR, from obvious PR sites, such as this and this, or at best clearly promotional pieces on magazine and web sites that let promotional interviews be published. Almost all the references used besides such obvious promotion, are notices about funding or the subjects own site. Only one of their paid articles has been accepted, MGC Pharmaceuticals , and, in my opinion it should not have been, and I have listed it for afd.
This editor is doing harm to Wikipedia,--and also to his unsuspecting clients. Any of them who might actually merit articles will find it much harder to eventually get them afte the spam that this editor is writing with their money are removed from WP.
Unless there are objections, I intend to block. The ordinary processes of G11 and G13 will deal with the article drafts.
The editor has written some acceptable articles for WiR, andhas done acceptable editing in other areas. Butthe harm that is being done outweighs this. I don't think a topic block would be sufficient, for it would encourage sockpuppettry. DGG ( talk ) 03:15, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
Sockpuppetry is likely to happen with blocked paid editors I agree. Is there a way to do a global ban on the editor and the company they work for so we can simply delete their creations if found to be socks or meat? If these are through a company, they will likely give it to another employee if this one is banned. --CNMall41 (talk) 15:17, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
No objection here; I would support a block, for precisely the reasons outlined above. Getting this user to make the correct disclosures has been an uphill struggle, and at the time of writing they still had yet to disclose their affiliations via Upwork. Improving Wikipedia is very clearly a secondary concern to Reddragon7, falling in far behind their primary motivator of "making bank". Yunshui  07:18, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
I think a block is the correct action in this situation. Our editors' time is valuable, and maybe even more so with AFC, where article creators should be attempting to create acceptable articles in good faith - so as not to waste others' valuable efforts. The standards cannot be ignored while crossing fingers and hoping for a pass - rather than choosing to not submit and waste other people's time out of consideration. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 14:55, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
  • It makes me very uncomfortable to mandate a person disclose accounts from other sites to avoid blocking. Even in the case of a paid editor. That said, an editor offering to create paid articles (as opposed to an employee whose job it is to monitor an existing article) needs to have a good grasp of notability. It is indeed disruptive to the project if a disclosed paid editor repeatedly fails at getting articles through AfC. That might be in the letter of the rules, but not the spirit. I see a litany of AfC rejections and no indications that these rejections were unfair or contra to policy. I would support a topic ban from paid editing or some sort of non-trivial block (one month?), in order to give us time to clean-up AfC submissions with the next block being an indef (or community ban). There's enough rule following and promise to make me rather have him in the tent than out but that's a pretty fine line. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:02, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
  • I would like to add to what's already been said the fact that some drafts they have created (such as Draft:British Herald and Draft:Realtor.ca) have previously been created by editors who were blocked for undisclosed paid editing (prolific sockmaster Amvivek and Jbertho88, respectively). I'm not implying that Reddragon7 is a sock of either of those, but it shows that they are more concrned with what their clients want to add to Wikipedia, than what is appropriate content here. Another red flag is the way Reddragon7 has created new drafts with "alternative" titles rather than work on existing declined drafts: Draft:Voximplant1, cf Draft:Voximplant ; Draft:Techrock1, cf Draft:Techrock ; Draft:Jared Canon about a person called Jared Cannon, cf Draft:Jared Cannon which was recently speedy deleted as spam ; and Draft:Greg Fleishman which was created after Reddragon7 had edited and reverted their own edit to Draft:Greg Fleishman (entrepreneur). They haven't been explicitly asked not to do that, but it's an underhanded tactic that also indicates WP:NOTHERE. I'd support a block. --bonadea contributions talk 12:32, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
That sums up why I think the company as a whole should receive a community block. The company was likely hired by these individuals and they are just using freelancers to shotgun these drafts into AfC, hoping they will be carelessly approved or cleaned up by an unsuspecting volunteer. --CNMall41 (talk) 19:21, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Is it feasible to block the company as a whole? If so, that might be a good solution. RedDragon7’s contributions so far don’t seem malicious or dishonest, just inept, but I agree that it’s a lot of work to clean up these articles continuously and I’m worried that he might cause an otherwise worthy article subject to be banned. Michepman (talk) 20:31, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
It might be a good idea to block the company, because then it will be simpler to deal with puppetry. But I would not necessarily assume that if two paid editors worked on an article for the same subject, they're certain to be puppets. I've seen cases where the long interval shows that after the subject failed with one editing firm, they tried another. When they're closely related in time, as with these examples, it indicates an attempt to defy our policies. That makes this not only inept editing, but NOT HERE. DGG ( talk ) 18:51, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Blocked indefinitely. I'll just trot out my usual motto: the time and patience of constructive editors is Wikipedia's most precious resource, and is not to be squandered, as has been happening for too long with Reddragon7. As for blocking the company, I'm not sure how we'd do that, but if it's feasible, I'm for it. Bishonen | talk 16:55, 14 September 2019 (UTC).

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I know I'm coming in late, but from a practical standpoint you would want to community-ban the company and/or all its present and future employees. We've de facto done this before with Wiki-PR (WP:Long-term abuse/Morning277) and Leo Burnett Tailor Made/The North Face (WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1011#Community ban for Gmortaia and any other employees or subcontractors of Leo Burnett Tailor Made (and the North Face)). —A little blue Bori v^_^v Fram was railroaded! 04:09, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

User:Harshil169 is wikihounding me[edit]

User:Harshil169 is continuing to add deletion tags on every page that I am creating for no rhyme or reason like he did to List of Jain Empires and Dynasties and see my talk page he wants to delete my every page and is continuously wikihounding me — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rishabh.rsd (talkcontribs) 06:55, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Please follow the instruction at the top of this noticeboard and inform Harshil169 that you have filed this report. El_C 06:59, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

done.... Rishabh.rsd (talk) 07:24, 10 September 2019 (UTC)


Hi, I am accused and explaining my side here. I contest speedy deletion of the many pages in a single day, I also revert edits those are vandalism and not good for Wikipedia. It is regular practice for me and User:Rishabh.rsd is no more exemption in this practice. I had already gave warnings on talk page and explained my all edits in my summary. Administrators can check it.
Now, comes to the topic. This user is adding honorific suffix and prefix like Acharya, Lord, Bhagwan, Swami, Ji (like sir) and Shri; after I explained that this is not practice of Wikipedia. Such things can be find 1,2, 3, 4, and 5. These are just example of WP:BIAS and violation of WP:NPOV. Most of his edits are like these. He also added same type of edits in the highly used template of Jainism by adding word Suri and Swami behind it without gaining consensus. It can be find here.
Not only this, he is removing the deletion template from the pages like he did twice at Anti-Jain Sentiments (now deleted) and once at here.
Complain regarding WP:Civility. This user complained that I am wikihounding him but he hid the fact that he called me as hypocrite Talk:Anti-Jain Sentiments. Now, it is deleted but old revisions may be available to admin side. He also told that whether I am in my sense or not at here.-- Harshil want to talk? 07:51, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

And this User:Harshil169 didn't mentioned unessecery deletion tags placed on List of Jain Empires and Dynasties and Sanat Kumara Chakravarti. See that page's history... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rishabh.rsd (talkcontribs) 08:07, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Come on Rishabh.rsd. I already explained why I put deletion templates on the pages you made. Rationale has been explained well in the AfD. And one page Jagathitkarani has already been deleted by admin. So, don't be personal here. Stay on policies. -- Harshil want to talk? 16:39, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
  • My initial impression is that whilst Rishabh.rsd might have reasons to feel harassed, Harshil's continued scrutiny were for entirely legitimate reasons and for the betterment of encyclopedia. WBGconverse 13:56, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
Winged Blades of Godric Thanks for understanding. I learnt lots of things from you. -- Harshil want to talk? 16:34, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

User:Harshil169 has again started wikihounding me see history of pages Trishala and King Sagara I am manually undoing vandalism of anonymous users on articles by seeing history and this user is again and again undoing it for no rhyme or reason. Rishabh.rsd (talk) 09:30, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Also see Doxography pages history Rishabh.rsd (talk) 09:34, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
  • I consider these type of complaints without proper sources as personal attack on me. Hence, I am reporting to Administrators about personal attack. -- Harshil want to talk? 05:03, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Repetitive personal attack on me.[edit]

I am Harshil Mehta and User:Rishabh.rsd is assuming good faith on my edits and he did personal attacks on me which harmed my online presence on Wikipedia. I reverted some of his edits, with summary, which were not constructive and gave warnings about it on his talk page too. Still, he didn't improve his edits and started adding honorific suffixes and prefixes on articles. And lastly, he attacked personally. Not once, he repeated this behavior many times and this is violation of WP:Civility, and WP:PA, and hence, I am complaining to the Wikipedia administrators about his behavior.

  1. See, Talk:Anti-Jain Sentiments. User was started Whataboutery in deletion discuss and when I stopped him to do so then he labelled me as hypocrite.
  2. Not only this, he complained that I am harassing him (without any proof) to two editors [same message though, which is also called as disruptive editing]. They can be found here and here. Calling someone as harasser and not assuming good faith in their edits is violation of WP:Civility.
  3. He went on to saying that I lost my all sense at here when he made article of one line and I contested it for deletion.
  4. He even complained on administrator board and wrote with my username that I am wikihounding him and that too without any evidences and details. My defence on this can be found here. This behavior is WP:Uncivil.

Here is my complaint to the Administrators about this user which harmed my online presence and discouraged me. Wikipedia is not battleground and I am already cool till now. I request administrators to block him on this type of serial offence towards an individual. Regards, -- Harshil want to talk? 05:35, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi I am getting a feeling of harrasment and I don't think I have to give a proof for it, also I said u are wikihounding me see page King Sagara and other pages also how u r undoing my edits for no reason.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rishabh.rsd (talkcontribs) 07:51, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Your feeling to get harassment is not proof that I harassed you. Provide evidences. If you want to report WP:Harassment then it’s necessary to provide evidences, otherwise, unnecessary accusations are violation of WP:Civility.— Harshil want to talk? 11:56, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
First of all I didn't use the word harass and never accuse u of harassment in any of my complaints so it's not a matter to be proved and I just asked that r u in ur senses and never said that u have lost ur senses please don't fill words in my mouth Rishabh.rsd (talk) 10:11, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Note: an existing thread "#User:Harshil169 is wikihounding me" above, is related to the same users.--DBigXray 06:39, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Combined. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:00, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Smells like undisclosed paidediting[edit]

Bishonen has expelled the funk. Jehochman Talk 21:33, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

See Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard. Uncle G (talk) 11:17, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

  • Excuse me? Does the whole noticeboard smell? Did you leave something out, Uncle G? Bishonen | talk 19:38, 12 September 2019 (UTC).

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Spidey Sense Tingling[edit]

May have just been nothing. Simonm223 (talk) 12:38, 16 September 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I got a very odd message on my user talk page recently [45] - this user has never made any other edits and came to me with something... about copyright... at Ghengis Khan - a page I occasionally work on. I pointed them to help desk, but I can't help but feel like there was something off about the request I can't put my finger on. May be nothing. Simonm223 (talk) 15:51, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

It sounds like he's asking about licensing, but he doesn't know the term in English. I'm assuming English is not his first language. May His Shadow Fall Upon You Talk 17:32, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
I mean probably. But it was very odd they asked me in particular - or that they created a wikipedia account specifically to ask me a question then provided an off-wiki contact method for response. Like I said. Could be nothing. Or it could be some sort of phishing thing. Simonm223 (talk) 17:41, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
I don't email anyone I don't trust completely, even via Wikipedia's email. I left a hopefully helpful message about reusing Wikipedia content on their talk.-- Deepfriedokra 17:50, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Thank you. I wasn't comfortable helping them with that as creative commons licensing is not a specialty of mine. Simonm223 (talk) 18:14, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Luckily, I have a permit that covers all licensing issues. A copy can be found here: [[46]] May His Shadow Fall Upon You Talk 19:26, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
We'll see how far that gets you on Wikimedia Commons. ;) Simonm223 (talk) 19:39, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Offered help on user's talk page. Buffs (talk) 19:13, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Persistent personal attacks by Jackgrimm1504[edit]

@Jackgrimm1504: is a newly-created single-purpose account. He has 36 edits total, and 6 of those I would count as personal attacks directed toward me and @Xx236:

  1. [47]
  2. [48]
  3. [49]
  4. [50]
  5. [51]
  6. [52]
  • he has decided that I am "marked" as a "level 5 vandal". Elizium23 (talk) 21:45, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Just a quick marginally-useful note that addressed one tiny aspect of this: I suspect Jackgrimm1504 is misunderstanding {{Vandalism_information}}, which is transcluded on Elizium23's talk page. Jack, that is showing the level of vandalism on Wikipedia as a whole, not characterizing vandalism from Elizium. Elizium is not a vandal.
I'll leave it to others to wade thru the diffs and decide what to do about everything else. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:16, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
In which case, everything's cool, because WikiDefCon 5 is the lowest level of vandalism overall :-) Elizium23 (talk) 22:21, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
I mean, it's kinda cool, but it's not that cool. His harassing behavior towards Elizum23 (talk · contribs) is pretty unacceptable. He seems to be on some kind of crusade to right great wrongs on the topic of Poland. If this passion can be channeled towards productive editing, that would be great, but either way he can't go around taking such a battleground mentality towards other users. Michepman (talk) 03:29, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
I don't like Piotr Rybak (a Polish anti-Semitic activist). But either we support total freedom of speach or we define limits of the freedom for all participants. Xx236 (talk) 06:41, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
This is deeply stupid. All of WP:CIVILITY, WP:BLP, WP:FRINGE, WP:NLT, etc. are restrictions on some kinds of speech, and they are all essential to the proper functioning of this project. --JBL (talk) 14:41, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

These comments by Xx236, in regards to LGBT and reliable sources in Poland, are very concerning:

  1. [53] - British culture has been anti-Catholic since ages. The reader should be informed about the bias. Burning of Catholic Guy Fawkes effigy is a part of British culture.Xx236 (talk) 07:04, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
  2. [54] - If Elżbiet Podleśna is a civil right activist, Piotr Rybak is one too. And the anti-LGBT ideology protesters are ones. Who decides which rights are better? The Daily Telegraph?Xx236 (talk) 07:07, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Comparing civil rights activist Elżbieta Podleśna (described as such by - BBC for instance) with Piotr Rybak - who is covered in the context of "The 50 protestors from the Polish Independence Movement were led by Piotr Rybak, who was once jailed for burning an effigy of a Jew." in the context of: "Far-right Polish nationalists organised an anti-Semitic protest during a Holocaust Memorial Day ceremony at Auschwitz. per Independent. Other commentary challenging mainstream RSes has been made on those pages. Jackgrimm1504, who is a new account, definitely had some cause for concern here.Icewhiz (talk) 07:44, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm also very concerned regarding the future of this Wikipedia. I expect a Wikiprison for not-enough-progressive editors.Xx236 (talk) 08:49, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
@François Robere: has joined in and rehashed Jackgrimm1504's canard, alleging that I have a "conflict of interest", and therefore should not be editing an LGBT-related topic. This was brought up in article talk space and not on my user talk page or on WP:COIN. I have disclosed that I am a member of an organization, and therefore I will not be making edits related to that organization, but I fail to see how the article in question is related to my affiliations. Elizium23 (talk) 20:54, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
No idea who Jackgrimm1504 is. The concern is that someone affiliated with an organization that has been politically active on the subject (in this case LGBTQ rights) may have a COI when approaching it. François Robere (talk) 00:18, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Terminology concern: I believe this is more "potential bias" than "COI." Given that Elizium23 is associated with a Roman Catholic diocese and the Knights of Columbus, there's a good chance they're Catholic, which means that they may hold certain beliefs independently of their affiliation with those organizations. That does not cross the line into COI in my opinion. Per WP:COINOTBIAS: Beliefs and desires may lead to biased editing, but they do not constitute a COI. It's also unclear exactly what "affiliation" means in this case - member of? employed by? If the former, then (for example) anyone religious would automatically have a COI with anything their religion has an opinion on. If the latter, it's a bit of a gray area since the line between "personal belief" and "affiliation" is very fine in this situation, but I'm inclined to say that this isn't COI. creffett (talk) 00:35, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

I feel that it is a foregone conclusion that I have inherent biases because of my beliefs and identity. I also felt that justice requires me to disclose my affiliations, and yes, in the past I have edited articles on the topics with which I am directly affiliated; I have resolved to stop doing that, and disclosure was a good way to keep me honest. I do not feel that this article talk page is the right forum for having a discussion about my biases or anyone else's, because the article talk page is for building consensus and improving the article. If anyone feels that I have a COI, there is a noticeboard for raising concerns and I am happy to address good-faith questions placed on my user talk page. But I won't apologize or refrain from editing in contentious subject areas, and I wish to be open to constructive criticism from people who say things like: "hey, aren't your beliefs and prejudices beginning to get in the way of objectively participating as an editor and amicably working out disputes with people different from you?" Yes, I think that our personal circumstances can lead to bad decisions here, and if I were in a better mood or having a better life, I probably wouldn't be here in the first place. Frankly I regret that my bias has been so arch-conservative and unyieldingly unforgiving of anyone on the other side of the fence. That's why I will never be an admin here, and that's why I've been taking significant wikibreaks, because it's not fair to innocent bystanders like you that I get a catharsis from arguing about trifles all day. Elizium23 (talk) 00:49, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
You may refrain from those arguments yourselves. The day LGBT-free zones were chosen for the DYK you began to erase a lot of information from that article, including my edit. I may be new to Wiki and misunderstood the "vandalism scale". But your began a "crusade" against me, as if asking if you're not biased is a capital crime. You can sort that yourself really, or well for instance - don't care, if your truly believe in what you're doing. I hereby apologize you if my "accusations" were wrong, and can we put this to an end? It feels really silly to be hopping around whole Wikipedia about an editiorial argue in one single topic. Everyone can read the whole story at Talk:LGBT-free zone themselves Jackgrimm1504 (talk) 08:28, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
  • I note that this is a very new editor who may not have realized they were stepping into a drama situation. I think this person is likely well-intentioned and just needs to get some experience. I don't think they even realized that bringing up suspicions about other people's motives was something they shouldn't be doing. I think a warning and advice to read our policies about civility, personal attacks, and assuming good faith is probably sufficient. --valereee (talk) 12:58, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
He seems to misunderstand more than that; he hasn't grasped salient aspects of WP:N, WP:SPS, and so forth, and he's using his misunderstandings to advance his side of the content dispute. If he's gonna argue for inclusion of stuff, it's gonna need to be based in a sound understanding of consensus, policy, what's acceptable on the project. But it is not really my job to hold his hand, and no matter how accurately I present facts, it won't get through anyway. (I am not sure how he wouldn't guess that the topic is contentious: he identifies as gay and Polish), but perhaps he underestimates the interest of English-speaking editors in what he considers a "niche" and insignificant event (and yes, for perspective, this is a niche and insignificant event; Icewhiz's efforts to push DYKs of this sort are the only reason they've come to our attention.) Elizium23 (talk) 20:02, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Niche doesn't mean that something is insigificant. Niche means "having specific appeal". The LGBT related topics are Niche in themselves, because LGBT community is a whole is only a fraction of society and therefore topics regarding them are usually not interesting to the rest of the society, not for any other reason than that they simply do not concern them. I still do not understand why do you so presistently bash that petition, but it has been removed, end of discussion, what else do you expect? Elizium I did apologize, but now you're acting as if you believe that I'm not doing something in good faith. So do those policies work both ways or do they not? And you don't have problem with me alone back in LGBT-free zone article, but with several other editors too. I too feel that you're doing a personal attack one me just because I'm new and I'm an easy target. Jackgrimm1504 (talk) 22:15, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Well, I'm sorry that I have made it personal, but truly there's nothing personal about my feelings on this topic or your behavior. In my years at Wikipedia I've seen all sorts of editors come and go (mostly go) and so I really have no dog in the fight if you wanna stick around awhile and try to collaborate with you. I admit that I need to keep WP:BITE in mind: you are new and not well-versed in policy, so it's tempting for me (and others) to play "gotcha!" rather than just patiently laying out the situation and guiding you toward a productive career here. So, yes, mea culpa. I think you have a good heart, and good intentions, and you registered here because you feel passionate about this one topic, and you should feel welcome and safe here to use your talents to build the article. Regarding the article topic, I simply cannot object to content that's properly sourced and meets policies. No matter my bias or yours, we're not allowed to put personal bias ahead of what's good for Wikipedia. So, unbeknownst to many, I spend quite a bit of time here reviewing material that I really don't like seeing but I decline to challenge it, because points of view other than my own are equally important and equally valuable to readers. The unfortunate reality is that many editors (even me) try to insert information that has no business being there, and being a habitual deletionist, I've appointed myself as the guy who, like Michelangelo, "chips away anything that doesn't look like David." I often regret being incapable/unwilling to write tons of original content and build up articles rather than tearing 'em down, but we need both kinds of people here, for balance. Elizium23 (talk) 23:46, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

User:STSC and WP:NOTHERE (September 2019)[edit]

User:STSC is continuing to make POV edits regarding contentious China-related issues. This was raised in 2015 by User:Feminist in the aftermath of the 2014 Hong Kong protests, and has come up sporadically since then.

The latest batch of questionable edits surround the ongoing 2019 Hong Kong protests. Here are some examples:

  • Referring to the protests as “riots”. In Hong Kong, the term “riot” has hefty legal ramifications. Given the fluid and most often non-violent nature of the movement, reliable sources have not broadly characterised the protests as “rioting”.
    • 15 August
    • 8 September – the cited sources do not use the term riot in relation to the Sheung Wan protests, as the edit summary falsely suggests
  • Changing Tiananmen Square “massacre” to “protest”, even though the legislative motion in question specifically applied to the June 4 massacre, not the 1989 protests as a whole (9 September, 10 September)
  • Denying that “protesters” are citizens, or falsely suggesting that crowdfunded newspaper ads were not funded by “citizens”, but exclusively by “protesters”, which is a claim not reflected in any of the cited sources (8 September, 12 September). Meanwhile, STSC portrays pro-Beijing protesters as "ordinary Hong Kong residents" (12 September). The difference in how the two groups are characterised is suggestive of bias.
  • Blanking “potentially libellous” content from the article for Junius Ho, a pro-Beijing legislator (2 August, 6 August, 21 August, 10 September, 10 September). In order for something to be libel, it must be false. However, the “potentially libellous” content in the article is all well-sourced to reliable secondary sources.

Considered altogether, these diffs are additional evidence that this user is not here to build an encyclopedia, but to push a particular political agenda. Citobun (talk) 04:14, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

  • Comment Out of all these diffs, the only one that rises to the level of a behavioural issue as opposed to a content dispute is this. Several of these look, honestly, like improvements from the perspective of WP:BLP and WP:NPOV. I'd suggest, at most, that STSC be cautioned not to use misleading edit summaries. But to claim WP:NOTHERE no. That's overreach. Simonm223 (talk) 17:59, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
(For instance, STSC's argument that a small-sample survey from a potentially biased source isn't WP:DUE seems quite solid.) Simonm223 (talk) 18:01, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
It's worth noting that the extent to which respondent's sentiment to being considered Chinese changed was documented at less than the margin of error for the survey. As a result, it's questionable the extent to which Wikipedia should be making interpretive statements of the raw data per WP:SYNTH notwithstanding the issue of the small sample size and risk of bias in sample selection, which is a bit of a black box here. We know they conducted phone interviews with a live interviewer but there's no information about the interview script, or number selection. Simonm223 (talk) 18:08, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
For additional grounds why this particular edit on STSC's part was actually probably a net good for the project see also WP:PRIMARY as the removed source is, in fact, a primary source. I use this as an example of why it's for the best not to initiate AN/I complaints to settle content disputes. However I should note that STSC did not deny that the protesters were citizens. STSC clarified that the citizens blocking traffic were protesters. Simonm223 (talk) 18:11, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
(Oops, hit publish too fast) I mention that one in specific because there are some complaints on this list that fail verification in similar ways. I'd suggest that the Citobun's POV may be colouring their perspective on STSC's edits. I do not think a boomerang is at all necessary here, but I would suggest that this complaint be closed promptly. Simonm223 (talk) 18:13, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
You can find elements of some questionable edits that are constructive in some way. Others are purely blatant POV-pushing. Regarding the Ho example, potentially controversial content on that page is well-sourced. His polemic makes him one of the most notorious politicians in Hong Kong. It isn't "potentially libelous" to write about these incidents as long as it is all well-sourced. Citobun (talk) 01:32, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment Simonm223 seems to have hit it on the head. I concur in general that, for example, "Tienanmen Square Massacre" is the appropriate verbiage to be used. While the protest indeed spanned a longer timeframe, he appears to be expressing support for those killed in the crackdown/massacre. Buffs (talk) 19:22, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment by STSC - Just recently user Citobun has been blocked for harassment [55] but he/she still does not want to give up his/her hate campaigns against other editors in content disputes. STSC (talk) 20:13, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment if this is in fact part of a pattern behavior wherein Citobun has targeted STSC it might be appropriate to reconsider whether a boomerang was appropriate. Simonm223 (talk) 22:57, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
    • I was told by an admin (User:NinjaRobotPirate) that I need to provide more substantiation to claims that STSC is engaging in unconstructive POV-pushing. I have therefore provided ample evidence above. Please read the policy at Wikipedia:No personal attacks. This clearly does not constitute a personal attack – it's about content. On the other hand, STSC repeatedly accusing me of undertaking a "hate campaign" is indeed a personal attack. So is your baseless claim that my supposed POV is "colouring [my] perspective". I have barely ever edited the protest page. Citobun (talk) 01:21, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
  • (Non-administrator comment) I had raised the concern on the article (or the set of article) for POV pushing and the emerge of a few SPA account. Experienced editor that synthesis source, that made up new thing from source is not that surprising to appear in the article. Just are there any admin dare to lock the article and allow editors to settle stuff on talk page first. Matthew hk (talk) 09:33, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Regardless of this specific complaint, and the long term interpersonal conflict it appears to be part of, I concur with Matthew hk that edit protection would be a good idea on these articles. Simonm223 (talk) 13:24, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment and question about BLP violations I recently removed this defamatory/libelous statement [56] from Talk:Joshua Wong (originally posted [57],[58], went to look at the editor's talk and came here. I am actually quite surprised to see users allowed to use the talk page for posting rumours about living people and then discussing them like a forum? I thought the WP:BLP policy applies everywhere. What is Wikipedia's mechanism to address such issues?--DreamLinker (talk) 20:17, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Yes, it seem a serious BLP violation by User:STSC (edit: the ip 94.134.89.53 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), i misread the talk page. 09:55, 15 September 2019 (UTC)) regarding Joshua Wong. Unless the user genuine believe the fake news / misinformation on state-owned newspaper inside the Great Firewall of China. BTW, his father seem a highly educated professional, which at least South Horizons is an expensive private estate. To add my point, even they are Vietnamese-Chinese (i did know some personally), it is a serious OR and UNDUE accusation on linkage to their political spectrum . Tung Chee Wa was from Shanghai/Zhejiang, Bernard Charnwut Chan is a Thai-Chinese diaspora and so on. Carrie Lam and her family have/had British citizenship too, so do predecessor CY Leung . Matthew hk (talk) 09:54, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
I dismissed that rumour as I could not find any reliable source to confirm it. Even if it was true, being a Vietnamese person does not mean he would be a bad guy in Hong Kong. STSC (talk) 10:04, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Your so called "dismissing of the rumour" was actually not a dismissing, but rather indulging in gossip and using the talk page like a forum to discuss unsubstantiated rumours. This is a serious BLP violation. We are not supposed to further discuss unsubstantiated claims (which is exactly what you did). I also wonder what do you mean in comments such as [59] where you say I agree. The "5 deaths (all suicides)" in the infobox does sound like they were suicide bombers for their "revolution". I don't know if you are doing this intentionally and trying to game the system by casting aspersions, but no English speaker would confuse "suicide" with "suicide bombing". I want to WP:AGF here, but your behaviour is somewhat close to what is described as Sealioning. I trust that you will take the advice and refrain from such behaviour.--DreamLinker (talk) 12:23, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
(1) A user wanted to include a piece of information in the article, I replied there're no reliable sources to back it up. Am I not allowed to do that in talk page?
(2) A user expressed his/her concern about a piece of information maybe misleading in the article, I replied and exchanged my opinion on that issue. Am I not allowed to do that in talk page?
STSC (talk) 13:06, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
I will describe what happened
(1) A user posted unsubstantiated libelous content on a talk page which was clearly a WP:BLP violation. Instead of removing, you engaged in discussing claiming "you've heard something similar". Then you added you don't don't have sources so cannot say it is true to false. We are supposed to remove unambiguous BLP violations, instead of commenting that "yes, I have heard something similar" and using the talk page like a forum
I would rather give the user a chance to reply and back up his/her claim in the talk page. STSC (talk) 15:16, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Your second edit which I pointed out is an example of a borderline edit which (while not breaking any explicit Wikipedia policies), tends to either show a deliberate attempt at Sealioning or a non-understanding of English (though I find it hard to believe the latter). It makes it hard to assume good faith, that's all.--DreamLinker (talk) 14:33, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
If you have any issue, why don't you discuss it in the article's talk page? Your problem is you don't even participate in that discussion about the deaths but tried very hard to make a meal out of nothing on here. STSC (talk) 15:16, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
I am commenting on your behaviour, not the content. This is the correct venue, not the article talk page.--DreamLinker (talk) 15:26, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
You disagree to my opinion about "suicide" in the infobox, that's very much about the content. Just say my opinion is not to your liking. STSC (talk) 16:04, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Like I said again, the issue is with your behaviour, your civil POV pushing.--DreamLinker (talk) 16:33, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Not at all "POV pushing". I hardly engage in edit wars. I just make edits and corrections per WP:NPOV in a relaxing way. You and your friends do not seem to be able to accept in a real world there're people with different views from yours. STSC (talk) 16:44, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
We also don't give let users post unsubstantiated libelous claims about living people, in the hope they maybe they will back it up someday. That's pretty much against BLP.--DreamLinker (talk) 15:33, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
I dismissed the claim because I myself could not find any sources, not because I know Mr Wong personally. I don't believe it's true but I chose to let the user justify the claim if he/she can. STSC (talk) 16:05, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Letting someone justify a BLP violation is not OK. It is still a BLP violation. Anyway, I trust that you will understand.--DreamLinker (talk) 16:33, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
By the way, you may say it's a false claim but please don't use the term "libelous claim", you have insulted to all Vietnamese people. STSC (talk) 17:06, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Saying stuff like "please don't use the term "libelous claim", you have insulted to all Vietnamese people" is precisely the problem with you. This [60] comment is definitely defamatory and libelous but you seem to not accept it. All I see here is a refusal on your part to even understand the basic fact that the comment was a BLP violation.--DreamLinker (talk) 17:28, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
To say someone is Vietnamese is libelous and defamatory? You don't see that's insulting to Vietnamese people? STSC (talk) 18:05, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
So you acknowledge that there is nothing defamatory or libelous in [61], correct?--DreamLinker (talk) 18:12, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
You avoided my question. STSC (talk) 18:33, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
When you answer whether [62] is libelous or defamatory, I will answer your question. Your answer is important because it indicates if you understand WP:BLP, which is actually quite relevant here, since we are discussing your conduct.--DreamLinker (talk) 18:41, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
I asked you the question first but you avoided it. I take it you agree it's defamatory and libelous to say someone has Vietnamese descent. STSC (talk) 19:01, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Oh, so not answering means saying yes. Wow.--DreamLinker (talk) 19:14, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Anyway, I consider this comment [63] to be libelous/defamatory statement and a BLP violation, since you are so insistent.--DreamLinker (talk) 19:16, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Again, this seems like over-reach based on the diff presented. STSC acknowledged they'd heard the rumour, said there were not reliable sources and that it shouldn't be included. That's precisely how one should respond to a BLP question like that.Simonm223 (talk) 13:23, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, but posting random unsubstantiated rumours is very obviously a BLP violation and should have been removed immediately, instead of acknowledging the rumour itself. I would find it extremely unsettling if editors are allowed to post such rumours and let it stay anywhere on Wikipedia.--DreamLinker (talk) 14:43, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Your initial dif was somewhat misleading. This isolates STSC's comment separate from the IP who made the initial statement. It's quite evident when reviewing the correct dif that STSC was, in fact, stating there were no RSes supporting the assertion regarding the subject's background. This is patently ridiculous. Simonm223 (talk) 01:50, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
There are 2 issues. First, it is unclear if STSC even acknowledges that [64] is a BLP violation. Second, instead of removing the comment, they decide to say "I have heard something similar...". We don't do that. The BLP policy is very clear that we do not allow BLP violations (particularly unsubstantiated ones) to remain on Wikipedia. I am actually quite surprised that you would think it is OK, given that this is the exact kind of behaviour which makes women and minorities stay away from Wikipedia.--DreamLinker (talk) 02:43, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • This was a few years ago, but it demonstrates that STSC has been pushing for a pro-Chinese government POV to an extreme degree, justifying the "elimination" of a religious group: Not every cult is harmful. Falun Gong was considered as posing a danger to Chinese society and therefore must be eliminated from China; such process should not be described as "persecution" as if the elimination is undesirable. Wikipedia is neutral and should not make judgement on the Chinese internal policy for the good of its society.[65] That is quite shocking IMO, but that said, "detestable" views itself are not blockable. It should be assessed whether these pro-Beijing views were pushed in a disruptive way and how they communicated with others. --Pudeo (talk) 17:19, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
No need to bring up here this old FG issue of 2015. Arbitration Committee had dealt with it long time ago. STSC (talk) 18:32, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
For STSC on Wong's article. It is nothing really wrong as the misinformation did wide spread in Mainland China. Blanking the talk page thread my be the best practice, but believing the ip from Germany (an international [Chinese?] student at Germany? VPN? Intentionally attack the page due to Wong's visit at Germany recently? We don't know) in AGF and reply them, is reasonable.
For this edit Special:Diff/915348212. The source material was discussed in Talk:Hong Kong/Archive 12 ""Despite the territory's current political association with the mainland, most of the population self-identify as Hongkongers rather than Chinese.". Please really start a discussion on it before remove it, or just restore the original wording , also cut the reason due to synthesis. You can't due to the reason you don't like the source then say it is UNDUE and when you like it it is DUE. I would only say HKU POP is respectable source, widely reported by local media. The opinion poll did reflected in 2008 many citizens considered themselves Chinese, but there is a trend in recent year there is more people to choose Hongkongers. But it mean nothing as the opinion poll provided options HK-Chinese, China-Hongkonger, and it is a quantitative survey so that no one know the meaning of HK-Chinese and China-Hongkonger. Also, 1000 is a good number for statical purpose. HKU POP did even reported the standard error or something similar. Matthew hk (talk) 11:50, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Also, if you want to say every Western source is not reliable. Then i have nothing to say because The Economist also use the same HKU POP opinion poll as their source material in a reporting [66] Are there bias in these opinion poll due to some people refuse to response? May be, but it is out of wiki editors to judge. Matthew hk (talk) 11:56, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Without digging into the wonkiness of methodological questions, which is (honestly) beyond our remit, it's simply put a violation of WP:SYNTH for us to be interpreting the results of this WP:PRIMARY source. If this is a respected survey, then I'm sure WP:SECONDARY sources can be found that will interpret the results. The language that I removed was clear WP:SYNTH and as such inappropriate. However, that's neither here nor there as STSC's edits are easily in the realm of a content dispute there. The edits regarding the survey certainly don't rise to the level of a behavioral issue regardless of how you feel about inclusion. I think you and I agree entirely that this entire AN/I issue is inappropriate for this forum based on the difs provided. DreamLinker's claim that STSC should be guilty for the sins of the IP because they didn't oppose the IP's edit request hard enough are patently absurd. Pudeo's mention of Falun Gong material from 2015 is deeply irrelevant to any current edit discussion except to establish that STSC is a person who holds opinions about things. And that is true of every editor on Wikipedia. And then there's Citobun's initial complaint, which I contend, based on it being part of a pattern of harassment against STSC as established in this dif, should probably pull a WP:BOOMERANG. I don't think there'd be any harm in cautioning STSC about avoiding misleading edit summaries, but considering the misleading use of difs and misleading commentary regarding edits that the complainants here have presented, STSC's comportment, as presented seems mild. Simonm223 (talk) 12:06, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment by STSC: User Citobun pointed out 8 "questionable edits", has he discussed these edits in the articles' talk page? No. Has he tried other dispute resolutions? No. What he's actually doing here is using the ANI process to harass his opponent in content dispute. We can all see his so called "evidence" is as thin as paper but it doesn't matter for him because he's still got the satisfaction of having me harassed by way of this ANI. I've been stalked by this user Citobun since 2014, and he already has a failed ANI against me in 2016. He has been warned by admin EdJohnston and NinjaRobotPirate not to abuse other users but he continues his stalking and wanted to have another go at harassing me by ANI here. There must be a deterrent to prevent users like him from abusing the ANI process to harass other users. STSC (talk) 22:01, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
I am not stalking nor harassing you. I have provided ample evidence of chronic POV-pushing despite multiple people raising concerns about this in the past. Yet you carry on as usual. As it pertains to a "chronic, intractable behavioral" issue, this discussion is best suited to take place at ANI. Citobun (talk) 02:35, 17 September 2019 (UTC)


  • Comment Based on what i read so far, In my belief Citobun's arguments are far more convincing than STSC. 02:51, 17 September 2019 (UTC) DoctorHell (talk)


Proposal[edit]

  1. STSC be warned to avoid misleading edit summaries.
  2. Citobun be given a short-duration block for WP:HARASSMENT and advised not to bring complaints about STSC up again unless they do something actionable.
  3. Edit protection be applied to articles related to the Hong Kong protests until such time as the current situation concludes. Simonm223 (talk) 12:06, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose, particularly the second action. I don't see any evidence of harassment by Citobun in this complaint, where some valid issues have been pointed out by multiple editors. I don't see this complaint as disrupting Wikipedia either. Blocking people for bringing up legitimate issues at ANI only serves to create a Chilling effect on Wikipedia. More importantly blocks are supposed to prevent disruption, not be used punitively and I also note that for the evidence of harassment presented here [67] is from July and has already been acted upon.--DreamLinker (talk) 17:04, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Citobun was [68] blocked for harassment in July for PAs against STSC. And their response two months later is this trumped up AN/I filing. I don't think that a clearer picture is needed than that. They clearly have personal issues with STSC and they are clearly allowing those personal issues to cloud their judgment around proper comportment on Wikipedia. I don't think they need to be indeffed, but they do need to be reminded to behave. Simonm223 (talk) 17:31, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • And that's the second time Citobun pulled a block in a situation where they were tangling with STSC over a Hong Kong article [69] - the 2017 edit warring block, if you look at article history, it was Citobun in a 1AM situation, and STSC was one of the M in that equation. Simonm223 (talk) 17:35, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • [70] Here's the history in question. The page is essentially inactive now so it's easy to find the appropriate edit war. Simonm223 (talk) 17:36, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
I found the 3RR/N case that led to Citobun's first block and while both were blocked for edit warring at that time, Citobun was admonished by the blocking admin to avoid PAs on that occasion too. This is a long-standing grudge that has to be put to bed. Simonm223 (talk) 18:20, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
I see an edit war (that too dating back to 2017) for which both STSC and Citobun seem to have been blocked. The other complaint is from July for which Citobun was blocked. I don't see anything in this particular ANI filing which would would remotely count as harassment.--DreamLinker (talk) 18:59, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose – Simonm223, what gives? This ANI filing is clearly not harassment nor a personal attack. I've already responded to that claim above, though you chose to ignore it. Citobun (talk) 02:21, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose - the second action, the issue here is about STSC, not Citobun. DoctorHell (talk) 02:54, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Proposal 2[edit]

STSC should be warned. In particular, they should (1) demonstrate an understanding of our WP:BLP policy (2) avoid misleading edit summaries. Any future violations should be blockable.--DreamLinker (talk) 16:16, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

  • Oppose as it leaves Citobun without any response to their vexatious and unnecessary AN/I complaint. Simonm223 (talk) 16:48, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
What is vexatious or objectionable about this AN/I complaint? You keep making completely baseless claims that I am attacking people. I have already linked you to the policy at Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Read it. I have provided ample evidence to back up my original allegation. I have not made any personal attacks here, nor harassed anyone. Stop making these baseless accusations. Citobun (talk) 02:27, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Support - Between Citobun and STSC, I view STSC as the greater problem due to the POV slant of his editing and violations of biographies of living persons policy. This is fully demonstrated by the diffs already presented in this thread. I think that a warning to STSC should be sufficient to get the message across.Krow750 (talk) 23:49, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Support, though STSC should also be warned to cease making politically slanted edits of dubious veracity that are not backed up by citations to reliable sources. I provided multiple examples of such edits in the original filing above, which neither STSC nor Simonm223 addressed, instead choosing to frustrate the discussion by making baseless personal attacks against me. Citobun (talk) 02:41, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Support Citobun has provided amble evidence. The issue here is STSC's behaviour, not Citobun. I believe to penalize Citobun is to shoot the messenger. DoctorHell (talk) 3:04, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

IvanScrooge98's edits in the area of Germanic languages[edit]

Hello. Over the last year, IvanScrooge98 has made a series of dubious edits in the area of Germanic languages (specifically IPA transcription). The issue reminds me of LoveVanPersie. What's the same is this:

  • Inability or (even worse) unwillingness to read the relevant literature - in other words, issues with WP:COMPETENCE and sometimes also with complying with WP:RS.
  • Issues with WP:DIDNTHEARTHAT.
  • Relying on other users to clean up after him (or at least to notice his mistakes, he tends to clean up after himself after that).
  • Relying on other users to teach him phonetics/phonology for free instead of reading the literature.

I should've reported him sooner, definitely.

First the discussions, which IMO show his lack of competence:

  • In this discussion, he asked me whether we could manufacture a pseudo-consensus regarding the use of the secondary stress mark in IPA transcriptions of Swedish, regardless of what reputable sources say about the subject (so that he could keep editing in the area of Swedish phonetics). Other discussions about that include User talk:Kbb2#Blekinge and User talk:IvanScrooge98#Long consonants in Swedish - I think that they prove that he hasn't improved his knowledge in the area of Swedish phonetics and phonology at all. He had a year to do that.
  • In this discussion, he was pointlessly arguing with me that Swedish [ɪɛ] can be understood as anything other than a sequence of two vowels, which is unlikely (especially if you only consider those of our readers who can only read English IPA - in English, [ɪɛ] [mostly written as [iɛ] or [ie]] can't be compressed to [jɛ]). Plus, the pronunciation with [j] is possible in Swedish. Maybe not in all words, but it is possible and I gave him a source for that. That argument, as well as this discussion was a waste of time for everyone involved and a case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. What else should you call repeating "I'm not convinced" or "I don't agree", no matter what I say? Pronouncing "copy-edit" as [ˈkɒpjɛdɪt] (or [prəˌnʌnˈsjeɪʃən] for "pronunciation") is impossible in native English. Here's a quote from Geoff Lindsey's "English After RP", page 25: [S]ome of the words which are most commonly mispronounced by non-natives are ones in which weak FLEECE and GOOSE are followed by a vowel, such as association and situation (see Chaps. 8 and 9). In such words, non-natives very often fail to separate the two syllables in 'ua' and in 'ia'. Here, FLEECE should be taken to mean HAPPY, which isn't a true phoneme in English (HAPPY = KIT in older Received Pronunciation, hence the transcription ⟨ɪ⟩ in some sources. Other sources use ⟨i⟩, which is a symbol that means "either /ɪ/ or /iː/".
  • In this discussion, I noticed that he misheard [trɔlˈhɛtːan] for [²trɔlːˌhɛtːan], which means that he knows little about the Swedish pitch accent. He was partially right about the long consonants though.

Now the diffs.

  • He's made a series of mistakes when transcribing German:
    • He transcribed /ən/ after /m/ as if it were syllabic, which is an impossible pronunciation: [71]
    • He transcribed /ən/ after /ŋ/ as if it were syllabic, which is an impossible pronunciation: [72]
    • He transcribed /əm/ after /t/ as if it were syllabic, which is an impossible pronunciation: [73]
    • He mistook the syllabic [ɐ] for the non-syllabic [ɐ̯] just because it was preceded by a vowel: [74]
    • In this edit summary (of an edit that's a part of [this edit war), he told me that we should either transcribe [ʁ] everywhere (no source does that) or use [ɐ̯] instead of it (which is a solution used in a minority of sources). This shows that he's not reading the literature (AFAICS, he also wasn't aware of the fact that [aɐ̯] and [aːɐ̯] fall together with [aː] for all speakers who consistently vocalize their /r/ [though in regional SG there may be a difference of [aː] (phonemically /ar/) vs. [ɑː] (phonemically /aː/ and /aːr/)] - ⟨aɐ̯⟩ and ⟨aːɐ̯⟩ is just a convention used for the sake of phonemic identification, mostly for speakers of Swiss Standard German). The relevant discussion on his user talk page is here. In it, he admited that he can't really distinguish between a uvular approximant and [ɐ̯], which is an amateurish mistake. Most sources use ⟨ʁ⟩ or ⟨r⟩ after short vowels and ⟨ɐ̯⟩ after long vowels.
The relevant discussion on his user talk page is here. These are amateurish mistakes that nobody who's well-versed in the area of German phonetics would make.
  • He's made a series of edits in the area of Icelandic phonetics, here are some of them: [75], [76], based solely on Help:IPA/Icelandic and Icelandic phonology#Vowel length (I guess he didn't know that Wikipedia is not a source and that they can be incomplete or even plain wrong).
    • This edit has an alarming edit summary - he shouldn't have performed it if he wasn't sure of the correctness of the IPA. Here's basically the same kind of an edit in another article.
  • He edit warred with me on Henryk Sienkiewicz over a regional IPA: [77].
  • He's made a series of dubious changes to Swedish IPA:
    • Somewhere in this discussion it becomes apparent that he changed tone 1 to tone 2 in some transcriptions based on his assumptions and/or his untrained hearing (again, how can you mishear [trɔlˈhɛtːan] for [²trɔlːˌhɛtːan] if you claim to be competent enough to transcribe Swedish into IPA?). I'm not sure what those edits are ([78] is one of them) exactly, but they were performed roughly between August 25, 2018 and September 1, 2018.
    • Here, when fixing the Swedish IPA, he forgot to change the first vowel to [æ], which is an obligatory allophone of /ɛ/ before /r/ in stressed syllables. Again, an amateurish mistake.
    • In this edit he basically told me that he WP:OWNS Help:IPA/Swedish (that's how I understand it anyway) and I should just accept that edit based on the fact that he knows what he's doing (whatever that means, he didn't feel the need to clarify that).

I propose a topic ban for editing anything IPA- and phonetics-related in general in the area of Germanic languages (excluding English, with which he seems to have no problems). With such disregard for WP:RS we have no idea what he's gonna screw up next. It's not our role to clean up after him.

It'd be great if someone could check his edits in other areas (Italian, French, Slavic languages other than Polish, etc.) Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 07:14, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Again, you did not understand (or pretended not to) my argument regarding Swedish [ɪɛ], involving instances where an English speaker might use /iə/. The examples you put are just unrelated.
What should I say about the rest? My fault is that when I see a transcription that is more or less incorrect or does not follow what appears to be the implicit consensus stated in the help, I tend to try and correct it myself instead of using template tags such as {{fix}}. I must admit that, and all can do now is promising I will use them more often when I am not sure about my editions, however late this may be coming. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八[IvanScrooge98]会話 07:46, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
@IvanScrooge98: If they can read IPA it's impossible that they'd confuse [ɪɛ] for [ɪə]. Pronouncing English /ɪɛ/ as anything other than two consecutive vowels is a non-native mistake (and, in Swedish, unlike English, [jɛ] is a possible pronunciation of /ɪɛ/!)
You need to have the WP:COMPETENCE to perform those fixes. That you can gain by reading the literature (WP:RS). Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 07:53, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
A concern is that editors are coming to conclusions about IPAs based on their own opinions as to how indirect sources in literature such as textbooks should be interpreted or as a result of their own WP:OR. Surely IPAs should only be added if directly cited WP:V? Help:IPA/Italian is a further snare in that it seems to encourage original work.SovalValtos (talk) 08:55, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
I understand the concern with this but I still think it's the optimal approach. It's preferable for Wikipedia to contain pronunciation information than not to contain it. It is also preferable for our IPA pronunciations to line up with IPA help pages, which means occasionally transliterating into IPA from other pronunciation systems or making trivial tweaks to what is in sources like dictionaries (remember that there is often more than one acceptable or established way of transcribing something in broad phonemic notation, for example in Czech the vowel <o> can be transcribed as /o/ or /ɔ/, it doesn't matter, but we use /o/ to be simple and consistent.) IPA help pages can be created from reliable sources in such a way that any native or competent speaker of a language can interpret them and know how to transcribe anything by analogy to the example words given next to each phoneme. Calling that OR is not that far off calling translating OR in my opinion. The main purpose of the help pages however was to help users unfamiliar with the IPA make sense of transcriptions (hence the "nearest English equivalents"), and when they were first created they were made intentionally over-broad and simple. I am not sure how much that still rings today as certain pages such as Help:IPA/English have become overcomplicated to the point of just becoming summaries of technical phonology articles like English phonology. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 09:34, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Surely IPAs should only be added if directly cited WP:V? Yes please. It's preferable for Wikipedia to contain pronunciation information than not to contain it. Not if it is just made up by random people with no basis in anything but their own opinion. Calling that OR is not that far off calling translating OR in my opinion. Obviously translation can be OR, and if there is a question of two different meanings/translations then the correct way to settle it is by consulting reliable sources. --JBL (talk) 14:49, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Presumably a Wikipedia IPA help page should not be used to justify one editor's preferred transcription as was done by User:IvanScrooge98 in this edit [79] having previously changed another editor's preferred version in this edit [80] without source? Later in this edit [81] he persisted in adding his version without supplying a reference and without consensus.SovalValtos (talk) 10:37, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
@SovalValtos: I had explained there was no need for further refs other than the one I had provided, as Modern Greek pronunciation is constantly predictable from the spelling. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八[IvanScrooge98]会話 11:03, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Oh, and it looks like Trollhättan is indeed pronounced as I have heard in every single recording I have listened to. Just to say. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八[IvanScrooge98]会話 11:57, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
@IvanScrooge98: Perhaps. But Karlstad and Vigdís Finnbogadóttir aren't. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 12:36, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
@Kbb2: I clearly meant it as a reply to I noticed that he misheard [trɔlˈhɛtːan] for [²trɔlːˌhɛtːan], which means that he knows little about the Swedish pitch accent. Apparently you misheard it but were convinced I had, which means we are at least on a similar level when it comes to knowledge of the Swedish pitch accent and neither of us should correct the other. Regarding Karlstad, the present audio separates the two consonants, but we do not know whether it is the regular pronunciation or some kind of “more careful” one, considering how Karl is normally uttered. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八[IvanScrooge98]会話 12:49, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
@IvanScrooge98: A year ago you were changing tone 1 to tone 2 in Swedish transcriptions based on your hunches. That transcription was a part of your editing spree. Whether it was correct is, I think, less relevant than the bigger picture itself.
I'm not convinced that you should use your untrained, non-native ears (which are like mine in that regard) to judge the pitch accent in Swedish, especially in words with three syllables or more. The fact that multiple people oppose a topic ban for you doesn't give you a carte blanche to do as you wish. It's better not to provide IPA than to guess it. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 13:01, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
@Kbb2: yes, but you seem to have done the same when you first added the stress, instead of either removing the transcription, tagging it as incomplete or looking for a source.
I am not taking it as carte blanche, don’t worry. I have understood when I should edit and when not. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八[IvanScrooge98]会話 13:47, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose topic ban. This is really unnecessary and premature. ANI is your last resort; you shouldn't bring anything here until other resources have been explored. Seems like you learned nothing from the friendly caution FeRDNYC gave here just a couple days ago. It also seems you didn't notice the warning at the top of this page, which tells you to be concise: I mean, do you seriously think admins and veterans who frequent here are going to read and understand all of what you wrote there? Invite editors well-versed in the area for their opinions at a more appropriate forum (like WT:LING). At this stage this is simply a content dispute. So seek for arbitration, not sanction.

    IvanScrooge98 is a prolific editor in this area and, as far as I've encountered and as far as the languages I'm familiar with are concerned, a very competent one. And there are few competent IPA editors, let alone such prolific ones. So far I see no reason to believe he will not be persuaded when confronted with reasonable evidence that disagrees with his behavior. So if he's not, then maybe you haven't been doing a good enough job convincing him. Have you, for example, asked for a third opinion? (I know I've been asked by Ivan, which I was about to get to, but then this happened. Thanks for your patience.) I advise Ivan to stick strictly to WP:BRD, i.e. always prefer the version before you arrived at the article whenever your edit is challenged until it is settled in a discussion. I advise Kbb the same. Nardog (talk) 08:58, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

@Nardog: You're probably right. I'll let this discussion come to an end in a natural manner (unless more users join and decide that a topic ban is a reasonable solution after all - that could happen too) and will start a discussion at WT:LING. Though I don't see how this report (apart from the wording of a few sentences, which could be improved) could be understood as a personal attack. I saw sufficient reasons to report him and so I went ahead. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 22:40, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose topic ban. Agree with the above, this is premature. I did as you asked and checked Ivan's scant contribs in Czech and Slovak and found one incidental error which anyone could be forgiven for and is of little consequence. I have more bones to pick with some of the English transcriptions being added (not just by Ivan) which I will gladly elaborate on in a more appropriate venue. Also, responding to one specific point raised above, if IPA help pages like Help:IPA/Icelandic are wrong (as in actually wrong, not just intentionally broad, which is by design), then I think our priority should be fixing them first before we get into disputes over individual pronunciations. I recommend using sources published by the International Phonetics Association to adjudicate any disputes around IPA help pages, as no one can sensibly claim that those are unreliable. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 09:34, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
  • I checked the Icelandic edits that are linked to and they are fine. The first vowel in Katrín is indeed long and IvanScrooge98 was right to correct that.[82] Haukur (talk) 10:42, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose topic ban. I checked the German edits that are linked to. I see no basis for claiming that any of them should be “an impossible pronunciation”. On the other hand, I know that Kbb2 rejects variants very strongly. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 16:48, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
    • @J. 'mach' wust: Then you also don't know how syllabic consonants are formed in German. The first three mistakes in transcription are, in fact, an impossible pronunciation (which is how I phrased it). The first two would be heard as [m̩] and [ŋ̍] [which is a correct pronunciation and not necessarily very informal] by native speakers (their established transcription is [mən] and [ŋən], nobody would write them [mn̩] or [ŋn̩] except for few phonologists, these transcriptions are very abstract by the way and so is [tm̩]) and the last one as [pm̩], which is a serious pronunciation error. Neither German nor English allows the schwa in /mən, ŋən, təm/ to be dropped (in that manner anyway, the first two can be pronounced [m̩] and [ŋ̍] in German).
The pronunciation of /eːər/ as [eːɐ̯] is colloquial and shouldn't be transcribed in an encyclopedia.
Please leave the topic of Help:IPA/Standard German out of this. I have nothing against posts that genuinely support Ivan but your message shows a similar lack of research in the area of German pronunciation as Ivan's edits themselves. IMO it's also alarming that a native speaker that's been dealing with IPA for at least 15 years (if I'm not mistaken) would endorse those specific edits. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 21:10, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
I have dealt long enough with German pronunciation to be extremely skeptical when somebody claims that some plausible transcription should be a mistake or impossible or not allowed, especially when these bold claims are not backud up with any sources. You are accusing IvanScrooge98 of making mistakes and of using impossible transcriptions, but you have not given proof to substantiate your accusation. I therefore oppose a topic ban. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 22:19, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
@J. 'mach' wust: You cannot be serious right now. Insisting that [mn̩], [ŋn̩] or [tm̩] are plausible pronunciations shows that you have no idea what a syllabic consonant is. Again, an amateurish mistake. I really hope that you're joking, because you're a native speaker of German. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 22:31, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
I certainly was not joiking. Substantiating your accusations would help you more than personally attacking me. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 22:50, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
@J. 'mach' wust: It's interesting that you, a person who's been dealing with IPA and German pronunciation for more than a decade, haven't provided a single source yourself. My source is the 7th edition of Das Aussprachewörterbuch, pp. 39–41. I'm sorry but this is either a provocation or your knowledge in the area of German pronunciation is seriously questionable. Nobody who thinks that Atem can be pronounced [ˈaːtm̩] has been dealing with IPA for more than a couple of weeks. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 11:49, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
First: Why should I have to cite any sources? I am not making any claims, let alone accusations. Please read and understand WP:BURDEN. Second: I wonder whether you have actually consulted the Aussprachewörterbuch. It does not say anywhere that the transcriptions IvanScrooge98 has used are “mistakes” or an “impossible pronunciation”, as you have claimed. It just explains the conventions used in that dictionary – IvanScrooge98 has not followed them, but that obviously does not mean that IvanScrooge98’s transcriptions are “mistakes“ or an “impossible pronunciation”. Third: I feel silly for having to point this out, but a dictionary could not possibly prove your point that certain pronunciations are impossible. You would have to find peer-reviewed phonetic literature that uses hard empyrical data. I seriously doubt that you are ever going to find it. Empyrical data is likely to prove you wrong by showing that the pronunciations you so insultingly reject are really possible and do occur. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 13:02, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
@J. 'mach' wust: Someone please warn this guy and remove the conversation. This is a case of deliberately spreading misinformation. I'm ending this per WP:DONTFEED. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 17:39, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
This is Wikipedia. If you are trying to win an argument by claiming your POV is obvious and then implying that anybody who does not agree with your POV is stupid, you are not going to succeed. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 19:24, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Luckily no one understands what this IPA stuff means anyway, so it doesn't matter except to those involved. EEng 02:40, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
    Well, that is what helps are made for. To help people understand. By the way, I’m thanking everyone who’s taken the time to constructively intervene so far. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八[IvanScrooge98]会話 07:35, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Don't ban IvanScrooge98. Although I have differences with that user, at least he's providing information (both English & foreign words) on phonetics & pronunciations. If you are a native speaker of other languages (ie., French, Spanish, etc.) & knows the rules of phonetics & pronunciations, do provide the correct information. Banning that user would be total loss to Wikipedia. NKM1974 (talk) 18:30, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
@NKM1974: We're discussing a topic ban (so that he wouldn't be allowed to edit in certain areas), not a block. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 08:02, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
You can place me firmly in the category of "dealing with IPA for ... a couple of weeks". I.e. I'm looking at IvanScrooge's edits and physically trying to replicate the sounds proposed.
1) To go from m to n without a vowel between requires a pause. In transition without a pause, there'll be a schwa (an "uh" sound) (i.e. muhn). It's not (afaict) possible to do otherwise. The "m" sound is made with the mouth closed (it's a bilabial sound, meaning that it's made with the lips). So if you open your mouth while saying "m" it becomes "muh" (i.e. mə). In tandem, the "n" sound is made with mouth open and tongue pressed against the alveolar ridge. So, in transition you get "muhn" ("mən").
2) It's more plausible to go ŋ to n without a schwa. Try saying "singn", but not "singuhn". It's possible, but difficult and unnatural. The tongue has to slide forward from the velum to the alveolar ridge without creating a pocket. The reason is that the dorsum (back of tongue) touches the roof of the mouth when making a velar sound (ŋ), whilst the tip of the tongue touches the roof of the mouth when making an alveolar or post-alveolar (n) sound.
3) Tm is a lot like mn. You get a "tuhm" (təm) sound. Again, when making a "t" sound, the mouth is open. When making a "m" sound, the mouth is closed. You can again do "t pause m".
I hope my explanations make sense, and forgive me that I don't know the terminology well. I cannot replicate these sounds, or if I can, it is absolutely unnatural. Mr rnddude (talk) 12:49, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

User Nicoljaus[edit]

User Nicoljaus returned his version ([83], [84], [85]) in article John of Kronstadt, did not allow me to edit the article at all. He does not write neutrally. I suggested to write according to Kizenko ([86]), ([87]), but he doesn’t want. He wrote that it will be a fan club ([88]). I consider this to be an absurdity. I am sorry, if my edits were edit warring. Aleksei m (talk) 17:40, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

See WP:AN3#User:‎Nicoljaus reported by User:Aleksei m (Result: Three-revert rule not applicable).--Bbb23 (talk) 17:43, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Bbb23, where should I write or can I correct his phrase? Aleksei m (talk) 17:51, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
The best way to solve this is talking it out, which I see you folks have been doing on the talk page. I will chime in my 2 cents there to try to move this content dispute along. Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 18:15, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
What Aleksei m does is ordinary trolling. All his comments, all his nit-picking is nonsense. He himself will not contribute anything constructive to the article. He has one goal – to remove from the article all the negative facts about John (anti-Semitism, the patronage of the sect, the excuse of Kishinev pogrom, the shameful escape from Kronstadt) and make the Life of the saint from this article. To do this, he will seek a ban for his opponents. So he acts everywhere.Wlbw68 (talk) 19:38, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
This is boomerang territory. I tried to engage at the talk page, and got a combination of WP:CIR and WP:IDHT problems. This dispute? Over the use of the word "moreover". Aleksei seems impervious to logic, and is incensed that someone would use the "moreover" instead of "however" or "also". Perhaps a language barrier? Or just a competence barrier. Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 19:45, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
I explained why it is no need to use the word "moreover" and did not receive substantive objections on the Talk Page of the article. Aleksei m (talk) 17:22, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

───────────────────────── I'm wondering if there's a language barrier here, as "moreover" does not connotate what Aleksei seems to think it does. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 18:57, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

WP:AIV[edit]

May we get some administrative attention over at AVI? Thank you. Lupin VII (talk) 18:30, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

I fixed the header, I assume this is what you meant? Praxidicae (talk) 18:34, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Praxidicae Er, no. More so the page being backlogged. Thanks for doing so anyways. Lupin VII (talk) 18:50, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Never-ending dispute[edit]

AnAudLife and I have been involved in a dispute regarding the sorting of The Real Housewives of New York City article since June due to their bold edit that did not adhere to WP:BRD. Since said edit, we engaged in an edit war, for which I received a block. During this block, AnAudLife proceeded to form a conclusion based on their own argument with zero user involvement. After the completion of my block period, a formal discussion on the article's talk page commenced. However, after a while, it felt as if they and I were regurgitating the same points over and over, which prompted me to request for a third opinion on the matter (given here), open an RfC, and request dispute resolution, all of which have not resolved the dispute. Now, I am starting to think that the reason for this lack of resolve is due to what I perceive as AnAudLife's refusal to accept that not one (myself), not two, not three, but four users believe otherwise and that the only person on the article talk page that explicitly supported their theory has been checkuser-blocked.

Another isue that I would like to address is the constant broadening and narrowing of the scope of the dispute. After a third opinion was generated, AnAudLife, fully knowing that the dispute has always been about the sorting of a specific name on a specific article, broadened the scope out of left field. Then, during the RfC, it was back to the sorting of the specific name. I believe this confuses the discussion and makes it harder to assert points.

In relation to the scope, AnAudLife keeps contradicting themselves. Regarding the subject of one's nationality and the part it plays in determining indexing, they originally stated: Myself and others still don’t know why you think her nationality is a factor at all. Then it became: That is why this conversation was started, sorting indexing, alphabetizing...should be done according to the name itself, not exclusively the nationality, acknowledging that there's merit in the opposing view without acknowledging the shift in their view in regards to the dispute. During this process, they also referenced a WP guideline without addressing that the exact guideline was used to challenge their view.

AnAudLife has also exhibited a tendency to regurgitate points that have already been discredited. In regards to their claim that Alexandre de Lesseps is a Count and Luann maintains she is still a Countess . . ., I referenced two articles from the New York Daily News and the Miami Herald, respectively, that says the exact opposite. They then kept arguing their point, citing a dead link from a gossip site to support it.

They also failed to adhere to WP:OR, with statements such as . . . I’ve spoken with 2 English professors casually regarding this debate . . . and In order for Luann to carry the title of Countess, she had to become a French citizen and maintain that citizenship . . . without citations.

And finally, a personal attack in the form of an accusation of bullying. KyleJoantalk 20:49, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

  • That's ... a lot of discussion about whether to alphabetize it as "Lesseps, Luann de" or "de Lesseps, Luann". A lot. I understand it's easy to get sucked into this kind of thing. Eons ago I was sucked into a long argument about capitalization. Luckily I had a friend who noticed the dispute and pointed out to me that it really doesn't matter. I have some small hope that I can do the same for you. KyleJoan, I promise that it really doesn't matter how it's alphabetized. For that matter, AnAudLife, I promise that it really doesn't matter. The first one of you to realize that "wins". --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:03, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for your input, Floquenbeam. I think at this point I have realized that it doesn't matter that much. However, I still take issue with the way the discussion was conducted. I don't know if you ever felt gaslit during your dispute, but I certainly have felt that way multiple times during ours, especially being accused of bullying, which was why I felt compelled to open this ANI discussion. KyleJoantalk 21:12, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Why did you start this dispute here? When the moderator on the dispute page (that you initiated) here hasn't even written the RFC on MOS?
I honestly can't believe most of what you just wrote on this page and I refute most of it. I invite everyone to read my contributions elsewhere on this topic, addressing every point you make, leaving nothing out.
Why are you starting yet another argument in another place before allowing completion on the dispute page?
Also, I didn't think I've ever accused you of bullying, but I have certainly felt that way myself with the never ending disputes and accusations. However, if you feel as if I have bullied you, I do apologize.AnAudLife (talk) 21:15, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
I've never felt bullied by you. Never said it. Never felt it. Regardless, thank you for the apology. KyleJoantalk 21:34, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
(edit conflict) This was so long ago that "gaslit" wasn't really a thing yet. I mean, certainly not before the movie, but before it became a popular reference. But yes, at the time I did honestly feel that way. With time and distance, I realize he probably honestly felt the same way. The "bullying" accusation is sub-optimal, but (a) if you take it as an honest description of how AnAudLife feels, it's useful info even if not objectively true, and (b) you're kind of accusing them of intentionally gaslighting, right? Seldom are these things 95% Person A's fault, and 5% Person B's fault. Usually they're 45% Person A's fault, and 55% person B's fault, and it takes a lot of real, honest effort to figure who the 45% is and who the 55% is, and at the end of the day, after all that work, the difference between 45% and 55% is so small that the best solution is "why don't you guys kind of avoid each other for a while?". For something as low stakes as this, is it really worth finding out? --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:23, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
"gaslighting" dates to the 1930s. --Jorm (talk) 21:58, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm in no position to determine whether someone does something intentionally or not; I'm only saying that I feel gaslit, especially when every single one of my grievances contains direct links to specific instances of the problems I presented and they're still being disputed. I also do plan to avoid the dispute from now on. I think this ANI discussion is my final attempt to ensure that I address these problems in case they ever arise again in the future. KyleJoantalk 21:34, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Wow, that's... special. Is there even a MOS guideline for this? I have seen "De Word, William", "Word, William de", an algorithm that says De Word for single syllables and Worsmith, De for multi-syllable, I have seen "de Word" but alphasorted as Word, and so on. It's a muddle, so I am not surpised it's not settling. Much as I hate the MOS, this is really a job for a style guide. Best of luck. Guy (help!) 22:12, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
    • I have a vague, horrifying recollection that Belgium and the Netherlands traditionally treat the nobiliary particle differently (one omitting it and one including it in alphabetization), so it's...difficult to write a broad rule for this that won't make swathes of people unhappy. Choess (talk) 00:16, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Yes. Different nations use different rules. The content issue that I was trying to resolve at DRN is whether the national rule should be based on the nationality (citizenship) of the person, or on the national origin of the surname. I thought that I had agreement that the matter would be resolved by an RFC, which I was in the process of drafting. Their arguments weren't going to affect me, because I was drafting it to be a neutral RFC to be resolved by the community. I had asked the participants in the DRN where to post the RFC to get the most responses. I am now asking the community here where I should post the RFC. I have failed the DRN discussion because DRN does not handle a case that is also pending in another forum including ANI. I am still willing to try to address the content issue with an RFC after any conduct issue is resolved here. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:29, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
I felt that the DRN had become a proxy forum for more regurgitations of points already made, and I knew this ANI discussion wouldn’t affect the neutral RfC Robert McClenon was drafting. My intention with this ANI was to address behavioral issues related to the dispute. If the dispute itself could still find a resolve, then great. KyleJoantalk 01:11, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Although I thought KyleJoan planned to avoid the dispute from now on, as I stated previously, I personally would still like to see the RFC that Robert McClenon is drafting come to fruition to be discussed with other users. I'm not sure that this specific case can ever be definitively and satisfactorily decided, especially without further deliberation from other editors regarding MOS in general. I noticed when KyleJoan begins a dispute she visits other users talk pages and asks them to visit said dispute and give their opinions. Is that standard procedure? Can I do that as well? AnAudLife (talk) 01:35, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
@AnAudLife: To clarify, I'm distancing myself from arguing for the acceptance of one theory over another regarding this dispute. I still find your behavior problematic and will continue to respond to questions and comments revelant to said behavior as well as previous discussions that took place. Speaking of problematic behavior, it's difficult not to feel gaslit when viewing statements such as I'm not sure that this specific case can ever be definitively and satisfactorily decided, especially without further deliberation from other editors regarding MOS in general because you know good and well that you have personally initiated two MOS discussions, which others can find here and here, that did faciliate further deliberation from other editors regarding MOS in general, so the idea that the deliberation process on this matter did not go far enough is outright false. KyleJoantalk 03:27, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I fail to see that my "behavior" is any different than yours, you have argued your position just as vehemently as I have so there's that. When this journey (yes, that's what its starting to feel like) began, I felt that this case particularly was all that needed to be addressed, but then as other editors weighed in it became obvious that a more broader guideline needs to be established, not to mention all of the outside information available, it's mind-boggling. So the scope changed a little, it is not the end of the world. Either way it's a win for Wikipedia if we clarify this AND other cases in the future where this may happen. The discussions you spoke of, which I have NEVER denied initiating....nothing came of them. Nothing was concluded. Nothing was decided. Conversation dried up and that was that. Nothing changed. I'd like to see a RFC written by a NEUTRAL party and have other editors, not just the ones you recruit, to offer their opinions. Now if we're allowed to ask others to join in the conversation, then I will do so as well. AnAudLife (talk) 04:03, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
@AnAudLife: One key difference between our behaviors: I've legitimized your view. Never once did you legitimize mine. You simply changed the scope of the discussion multiple times and took bits and pieces out of my analyses and presented them as if they've never been said in the discussion (i.e. acknowledging that one's nationality is a factor in indexing after weeks of denying it, referencing WP:MCSTJR, etc.), therefore, gaslighting. I'm going to stop engaging you now. I'll continue to address my concerns regarding your conduct if anyone else would like to discuss it. Thanks. KyleJoantalk 04:25, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I don't even know what gaslighting is and certainly didn't do anything underhanded or intentional. I merely stated my position and presented facts, when you would bring additional points to be discussed, I discussed them, you changed the content, you set the tone, I simply followed suit. You consistently brought up nationality, I had to address it, right? As well as all the other points you brought up? And if you must know, in this case, it's a mixed bag. Luann de Lesseps is French, Algonquin and French Canadian, born in America, married to a Frenchman. How's that for confusing? I'm sorry if you feel I did something wrong, I certainly didn't mean to and not sure that I did. Is this just because you don't like to be challenged? No one does but isn't that what we're all doing here, trying to better Wikipedia? Isn't that the ultimate goal? AnAudLife (talk) 04:39, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

RFC[edit]

I have posted the RFC at https://en.wikipedia.org/en/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#RFC_on_Sorting_of_Names_with_Particles . Robert McClenon (talk) 00:55, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Proposal A: Interaction Ban[edit]

The above uncivil back-and-forth between User:KyleJoan and User:AnAudLife is oddly clarifying, in that it shows that we have two users who do not like each other and do not get along, and their interaction is a problem. I propose an interaction ban between these two editors, with the usual exceptions. I will complete posting an RFC within 48 hours, which should resolve the content dispute. The interaction ban will prevent the conduct dispute from interfering with resolving the content dispute. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:56, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

  • Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:56, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment – Genuine question: Is pointing out patterns of behavior complete with direct quotes and direct links and addressing how said patterns make one feel considered uncivil? I really tried my best to focus on content, so I apologize if some of my comments went beyond that. That was not my intention. I always aim to use discretion to maintain civility, and I'm sorry for the times that discretion was lost during this discussion. KyleJoantalk 07:31, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment – Genuine question: What does all this mean? Does this mean when you post the RFC that neither one of us can comment on it? And that if we run into each other again like say 6 months from now that we can’t change each other’s edits...or challenge the validity of their content or even converse on each other’s talk pages? And that we can’t ever address each other again? While I joined Wikipedia in 2012, I didn’t begin actively editing until this year so I am new to it and am learning as I go along, please pardon my ignorance with what you’re proposing and help me to understand fully. While I’ve felt attacked and belittled and falsely accused, I still don’t hold it against KyleJoan and have also apologized if they felt slighted. AnAudLife (talk) 13:09, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Although the interaction-banned users are generally allowed to edit the same pages or discussions so long as they avoid each other, they are not allowed to interact with each other.

Editors subject to an interaction ban are not permitted to:

  • edit each other's user and user talk pages;
  • reply to each other in discussions;
  • make reference to or comment on each other anywhere on Wikipedia, directly or indirectly;
  • undo each other's edits to any page, whether by use of the revert function or by other means;
  • use the thanks extension to respond to each other's edits.
From WP:IBAN. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 18:10, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
So you can both post to the RFC, just not comment on each others' posts. You have been commenting on each others' posts at too much length. You will notice that it also says that a no-fault two-way interaction ban is used to prevent a dispute from spreading. Also, you haven't been interaction-banned yet. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:42, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
I do not plan to engage the other user, but if I can't raise concerns regarding their conduct or even reference their conduct at all, then I'd like to ask for another solution. KyleJoantalk 21:50, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Support (if I’m allowed) Assuming the other user abides by the ban, I can't imagine there would be a problem with this at all. I would feel a bit safer and happier if I knew this would end the turmoil, the reverts, the arguing. BUT, if they continue to revert or undo my edits or contact me in any way on Wikipedia, will I have a means to report them? AnAudLife (talk) 22:27, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose (if I get to state a position). I feel that the interaction ban does not address the conduct concerns I raised about the other user. Now, if anyone would like to raise concerns about my conduct in this dispute and reference specific instances of when said conduct needed correcting, then I would like to hear them and have the opportunity to address and correct it. KyleJoantalk 23:13, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment - The statement by User:KyleJoan that "Now, if anyone would like to raise concerns about my conduct in this dispute and reference specific instances of when said conduct needed correcting, then I would like to hear them and have the opportunity to address and correct it" shows a lack of self-reflection. We have already tried to raise a concern about her conduct, which is that their focusing on the other user's conduct is tendentious. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:17, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
I feel the need to restate this, so believe me when I say I always aim to use discretion to maintain civility, and I'm sorry for the times that discretion was lost during this discussion. Aside from that, I'm really confused. How am I supposed to reference conduct if I'm not able to point it out directly? Also, if asking for an evaluation of my own conduct to ensure the discussion remains balanced is improper, then I apologize for that statement as well. KyleJoantalk 01:18, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose This feels like an overreaction to a first appearance at ANI, where, at most, there has been some mild incivility with probably not-overly malicious intent. And We have already tried to raise a concern about her conduct, which is that their focusing on the other user's conduct is tendentious feels like an overstatement; all I saw was a couple of editors advising taking a breath and walking away. KyleJoan has asked for specific diffs where they could have improved, and that feels like a good-faith request that shouldn't result in a sanction. Grandpallama (talk) 16:32, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Zenodo and copyright[edit]

This is not a user conduct issue, so not pinging the editors tangentially involved, it's a copyright and links policy question.

The problem I am seeing is that Zenodo is on the OABot list, so people using OABot to add free to read links are very often including links to Zenodo, which applies, as far as I can tell, no checks at all for copyright status. It's not quite sci-hub, but it'as a problem per WP:C because what you get on Zenodo may be a pre-review copy (which may not be the same as the final published article) or it may be an upload of a published article in a paywalled journal, either by an author or by someone else. Neither the authors nor third parties have rights to upload copyright material to repositories like this.

As far as I can tell, an article that identifies as being http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.vaccine.2015.04.040 cannot, per policy, be linked here from a third-party site that does not have a clear statement of right to host. I am not even sure we can make an exception for uploads in authors' own institutional web pages, because the copyright status there is also dodgy, but that's another question I guess.

As far as I can recall, we have always applied a bright line rule: if the person linking a document cannot show clearly that the site on which it is hosted, is either the rights owner or is hosting it by permission, it has to be excluded. This was always the rule for, for example, scans of newspaper articles and the like.

I need to check if my understanding of copyright policy is correct here, because if it is, we have to get the OABot folks to remove Zenodo from their source list, and then either roll back all OABot additions of Zenodo or review every single one by hand, and that is an absolute mountain of work. Guy (help!) 20:52, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I'm also concerned by this. WP:COPYLINK states our policy that we may not link to copyright violations (but we can, of course, link to copyright material). So that is a bright line so far as copyright ever is. The policy also states that we may link to internet archives such as Wayback because archives are not, of themselves, copyright violations. However, undoubtedly some of these archived pages will actually be of copyright violations but we hope they are sufficiently few that we do not ban all linking to Wayback "even if there are possible copyright violations somewhere on the site". Where does Zenodo fit in? Quite a few pages on my watchlist have had Zenodo added to them recently and some seem to be of documents that have fallen out of copyright but where the DOI link only gives obstructed access. However, a recent link was added to a Zenodo copy of this DOI which hence looks to me to be a copyright violation. Am I right? I think I found other such dubious links but I have lost track of them. Thincat (talk) 18:16, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Jytdog's analysis of one editor's additions for a day showed 40% were copyright violations. I think the problem is significant enough that we should not be including Zenodo in OABot's list. Anything more than a minimal chance of being either a copyright violation or not the actual published paper should be disqualifying for an automated process, right? Guy (help!) 10:47, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
I raised the use of Zenodo via OABot in the thread at User_talk:PedjaNbg#Adding_redundant_links_to_articles_with_existing_DOI_links. Slightly different concern as the specific examples I was referring to are definitely out of copyright in the US but we seem to be encouraging a breach of JSTOR's terms and conditions nonetheless. - Sitush (talk) 11:38, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Specifically on the issue of copyright, I was always told by Moonriddengirl that we do not allow links to scribd.com because of the copyright issues. Zenodo seems to raise the same concern. - Sitush (talk) 11:50, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Aggressive editor behavior[edit]

Editor SuperWikiLover223 has apparently retired, so I think I can close this complaint with a word to Johnbod to use more caution when characterizing other editors. Best to focus on content, not contributors, even--make that especially--during heated discussions. Liz Read! Talk! 00:24, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hello,

Recently I made an edit to a page that was reverted because an "in use" tag (which was on for almost a day, and is continously put on the page despite sporadic editing), I had scruples with the current edits, and the editor told me to "Go Away!" in big bold letters, see here. Totally unneeded. A remark on my talk page would have been nice, and would have sent the message way better. I do not want to edit war, and would like to squash any animosity, but this behavior is making it hard. This is also recent:

"He needs to back off, calm down, and come back in a few days to see what he makes of the article then. He also needs to think more carefully about many of his spray-gun arguments." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/en/Special:MobileDiff/915702345

SuperWikiLover223 (talk) 20:44, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

  • This is the latest episode in SuperWikiLover223's hysterical campaigns here. He has already today tried and failed to get the article deleted, having previously supported its creation after his split with Machiavellianism scale in pschology. This was followed up by a section at the Neutral point of view/Noticeboard He has been highly obstructive, edit-warring and hampering my attempts to refocus the article by many removals of referenced material, ignoring the "in use" template. He needs to back off, calm down, and come back in a few days to see what he makes of the article then. He also needs to think more carefully about many of his spray-gun arguments. Johnbod (talk) 20:59, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
You have not addressed the aggression and persist to call my behavior "hysterical". This is what I mean. I would like to gain an accord but it is becoming difficult.SuperWikiLover223 (talk) 21:07, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
SuperWikiLover223, just today, you have been talking about this particular article at AfD, NPOV and, now, at ANI. And yesterday, you created a related article Machiavellianism scale, separate from Machiavellianism (politics). While Johnbod could have been more civil, this looks like forum shopping. Liz Read! Talk! 21:23, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, but to be fair the split-off of Machiavellianism scale (psychology) was pretty much agreed on talk, by me & others. Johnbod (talk) 22:53, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
How am I forum shopping? Never knew reporting aggression is forum shopping.SuperWikiLover223 (talk) 21:28, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
  • SuperWikiLover223's recent edits are bizarre. Adding personal opinion to articles, no-hoper AfD and so on. I think the time has come for him to slow down and start asking for advice. Guy (help!) 21:32, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Screw this, if no one is willing (or simply ignoring due to favoritism) to see the other editor's errors, I just wasted my time. Nevermind this report.SuperWikiLover223 (talk) 21:34, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
You need to read WP:BOOMERANG. Guy (help!) 21:50, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
When did I say I was above reproach? I think this is diverting from the original discussion, but since it is deliberate, I choose to let it slide. That's fine.SuperWikiLover223 (talk) 21:54, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
  • You can't simultaneously AfD an article, and claim that you're the only editor who can save it. I've certainly seen (and suffered) Johnbod being super-aggressive at defending his articles. But that doesn't (obviously) excuse this. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:57, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Excuse what? Trying to AfD an atrocious article filled with NPOV and CFORKs? You people are hilarious. Seriously consider making a comedy trio.SuperWikiLover223 (talk) 22:02, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Maybe you ought to tone down on the aggression yourself, SuperWikiLover223. El_C 22:04, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Are you my father, EL C? Is it past my bedtime as well? Oh please. Give me a break. SuperWikiLover223 (talk) 22:09, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
I am the admin looking into your conduct, which does not really inspire confidence, I'm sorry to say. El_C 22:13, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
To be fair, while User:SuperWikiLover223 is not doing themselves any favours, neither is Johnbod - repeatedly calling someone else's behaviour "hysterical" is getting into personal attack territory and certainly doesn't aid in gaining consensus.Nigel Ish (talk) 22:56, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Well, twice, and that only because I copied my response at the section at the Neutral point of view/Noticeboard here. Johnbod (talk) 23:36, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@Liz: Not so sure about that retirement...see Special:Diff/915728943 (edit summary), Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Machiavellianism_(politics) creffett (talk) 00:41, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

@Liz: I suggest you reopen the thread and note the change in username (the new one is charming).--Bbb23 (talk) 18:10, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Who the heck approved "KingofGangsters" as a user name, for heaven's sake? Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:53, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
A good reminder that declared retirements should not close discussions, given how frequently they're used to avoid sanctions or unwanted outcomes. Grandpallama (talk) 16:36, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Long-term financial vandalism at selected pages[edit]

This is the second time asking help for this matter due to continued vandalism. Last time it was archived without even a reply. Last post:

A Mammootty fanboy is repeatedly exaggerating the budget of Mamangam (2019 film) and reducing the budget of his professional rival Mohanlal's Marakkar: Arabikadalinte Simham, disregarding sources. This is the nth time this guy is fudging the budget, even after multiple range blocks. IPs are: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 (and probably more). Because of a single guy, both pages were page protected. Sometimes also damaging other pages by reducing the box office numbers of Mohanlal films and exaggerating Mammootty films, a terrible version of that can be seen in the 10th and 11th IPs. Another trick of this guy for reducing the budget of Marakkar is exaggerating it first to a HUGE number beyond expecting and then reducing it in the next edit to a desired low figure like he was correcting it. Probably unaware that there is a page history and people can see.

New IPs: 1, 2. This guy has now created user accounts, Ayisha1209 [90], you can see other edits are all exaggerating the box office numbers of Mammootty films and the same "Tags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit PHP7", now blocked and created M0hamedr0shan007 the next day [91], same activity and articles and the "Tags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit PHP7" and there is Xskullxxrider. Please use a check user or anything and find out who this is. 2405:204:D285:C47F:955F:3C32:2586:C082 (talk) 08:57, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

  • A film about breast cancer screening is a worthy project and I hope those involved can resolve their differences. EEng 00:09, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

User:Lmatt and Disruptive Editing[edit]

Lmatt has been blocked, and there appears to be no ongoing discussion. Jehochman Talk 12:51, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Recently Lmatt, an old user that was more dormant until this year, has been making many disruptive edits to controversial pages TERF and Transgender as follows:

Edits to TERF (note: active RfC for LEAD wording active since prior to Lmatt's edits)
  • [92] WP:LEAD Rewriting (1)
  • [93] WP:LEAD Rewriting (2)
  • [94] WP:LEAD Rewriting (3)
  • (User Paused Edits For Few Days After Twinkle and Manual Warnings)
  • [95] WP:LEAD Rewriting (3)
  • [96] Remove Well-Sourced Paragraph (Claiming WP:FRINGE)
  • [97] WP:LEAD Rewriting (4) - Incorrectly redefine "TERF" as term instead of acronym
  • [98] Remove Sourced Paragraph (Claiming WP:UNDUE
TERF edits added after initial report
  • [99] Rewriting Coinage Section (1) (After WP:UNDUE claimed removals above reverted)
  • [100] Rewriting Coinage Section (2) (After Reversion of 1)
Gwen Hope (talk) (contrib) 22:53, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Edits to Transgender

Mathglot and I have warned the user on their talk page many times about disruptive editing and tried to influence them toward the consensus-building processes (Talk/RfC). However the user appears to have ignored most of the discussion methods and continues to disruptively edit.

I decided to list the incident(s) here because of multiple issues. Not only has Lmatt's behavior disregarded consensus standards, some edit wars have occurred, and considering both pages are controversial gender-related articles, the behavior likely violate current ArbCom sanctions regarding gender-related disputes. In addition, Lmatt's ECU status precludes easy page-protection limits or reversions. As such, I request admin intervention for the foregoing reasons. Gwen Hope (talk) (contrib) 14:46, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

@Gwenhope: Unfortunately I did not know about the RfC before I saved my edit to the lead section on Transgender. Flyer22 Reborn reverted the edit and warned me on the talk page about making any further edits to the Transgender lead section. After Mathglot gave me some helpful guidance on my talk page I have tried to bear WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY in mind and explain my edits to TERF on the talk page. Lmatt (talk) 15:38, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
It is best on controversial articles to gain consensus or explain before you edit. Regardless you have even continued to edit more today even after all the edit warring warnings and RfC establishments. This morning you deleted first and discussed later. Regardless, I would like an admin to weigh in. Gwen Hope (talk) (contrib) 16:20, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Since this edit on Transgender [110], which I would have self-reverted had you notified me of the RfC, I have avoided making any reverts on controversial gender-related articles and I have not edited any wording being discussed in an RfC. Lmatt (talk) 17:01, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
@Lmatt: Um, except for this one and this one, you mean. Right? Mathglot (talk) 20:42, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
@Mathglot: Thank you for pointing that. My comment used the wrong diff. This doesn't affect the point I was making which was the edit was 7 minutes after the RfC was created (which I did not know about). Lmatt (talk) 21:04, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Since this edit on Transgender [111], which I would have self-reverted had you notified me of the RfC, I have avoided making any reverts on controversial gender-related articles and I have not edited any wording being discussed in an RfC. Lmatt (talk) 17:01, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
You just reverted me here on TERF, albeit on a relatively minor issue. It looks like you were blocked less than a week ago for edit warring on 8chan, and you started editing on TERF almost immediately after that block expired. That's not a great look, and it seems like you should have a pretty firm grasp of the rules around edit warring before you start templating other users for edit warring. Nblund talk 21:42, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
I have made some comments on this revert on your talk page. Even though this was a good-faith contribution, it was technically 1R and I will self-revert if you post a unconstructive user warning to my talk page. Lmatt (talk) 00:24, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you think the purpose of a template is, but as I explained on my talk page: I already explained the problem, I shouldn't need to template your talk page to get you to follow WP:BRD, especially when you're already here claiming to have stopped making reverts. Nblund talk 01:13, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Could someone explain ECU status is? Lmatt (talk) 15:46, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
It means Extended Confirmed User, see: Wikipedia:User access levels#Extended confirmed users. The Mirror Cracked (talk) 15:49, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
@Gwenhope: You have accused me of disruptive editing but you do not appear to have provided any evidence other then a list of my contributions to the articles Transgender and TERF and your personal opinions some of them. Lmatt (talk) 02:58, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
@Lmatt: (to word this civilly) Evidence of your disruptive editing literally surrounds us. Ranging from a smattering of articles to user's personal talk pages. It's not just me. Look at what users Mathglot, Nblund, Flyer22 Reborn and Beyond My Ken have said here. Look at those who've reverted your edits this past week. Look at those who've tried to warn you in article and user talk pages. Gwen Hope (talk) (contrib) 04:54, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Lmatt, good faith is assumed to begin with, but at some point, people might wonder if it's starting to look like WP:GAMING the system. It kinda feels like you're edging, purposefully or not, towards a tipping point, or perhaps already at it, beyond which lies WP:DUCK. This is a good time not to quack. Mathglot (talk) 21:51, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

See, Lmatt, here's where it gets challenging for me. You get called here about disruption on some controversial pages, and you're engaging here, and seem to have tapered off or stopped at the two articles mentioned. Fine. But in the meanwhile, you've been edit warring today at User:Flyer22 Reborn's Talk page in violation of WP:OWNTALK, at 15:41 Sep 15, at 16:27, and at 19:45, with three different editors reverting you (including me, once). This just doesn't look good, especially since you were notified about this here, responded that you were aware of OWNTALK here, at 17:12, but doubled down twice anyway at Flyer's talk page afterward. It just reinforces the impression of brinkmanship and gaming. Mathglot (talk) 22:21, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
  • There's also the matter of the spate of dodgy edits Lmatt made in regard to anti-Semitism, including removing "Template:Antisemitism" from the article Ernst Zundel, when Zundel is a Holocaust denier. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:26, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
  • @Beyond My Ken: I would suggest that you avoid the appearance of WP:HOUNDING and do not comment on this further unless you have any concerns relating to my edits on gender-related issues. I have responded to your concern about removal of the template titled "Part of series on Antisemitism" from the article Ernst Zundel here Lmatt (talk) 00:52, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • I'm not terribly interested in your suggestions, so please keep them to yourself in the future.
    Once a AN/I report is open, all of the the behavior of the editor reported is open to investigation. The antisemitism-related editing is a subject I expressed concern about on my talk page earlier this week, [112] just after you were blocked for 31 hours by@Bbb23:. It's just as relevant to this report as are edits which attempted to format columns in multiple articles using non-standard units, and to change {} to <references /> in multiple articles. All of these -- the transgender edits, the antisemitism edits, and the MoS edits -- have been disruptive in one way or another, and are therefore appropriate to discuss here in a report about your disruptive editing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:32, 16 September 2019 (UTC) Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:23, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Yeah, you were being a nuisance. And...?
    If you're trying to show that I think you're a disruptive editor, and therefore that I am not unbiased in regard to your behavior, I'll cop to that. I've thought that you were disruptive since you first popped up on my radar about 5 days ago with this edit to an article on my watchlist. Further investigation confirmed that you were making a lot of disruptive edits. So, yes, I think you're a disruptive editor -- does that make my report of your disruption any less informative to other editors? Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:39, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • @Beyond My Ken: You banned me from your talk page after I made two comments warning you about edit warring. I would not have taken the time to warn you had you not had this notice on your talk page: BMK is attempting to hold himself to a 2RR limit. Please contact him if you see him going past that. These warnings were not unwarranted as you had made 2R on a 1RR page and 3R on another page. I am not trying to show that you biased, but that you are behaving in an uncivil manner. In regard to the diff you posted, if you wish to discuss it please do so on the talk page. Lmatt (talk) 04:12, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • So, let me get this straight, your answer to the complaint made by a number of editors that you are editing Wikipedia disruptively is ... wait for it ... that I banned you from my talk page? Since that is not relevant to this complaint initiated by Gwen Hope and joined by Mathglot and Nblund -- which it most certainly isn't -- I suggest you address yourself to the complaint instead of wasting everyone's time with irrelevancies. Why I banned you is my concern, but your WP:TENDITIOUS behavior in this very thread gives everyone a pretty good idea of why I did it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:23, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
@Lmatt:, BMK is well within his rights to ask you not to post on his talk page. Buffs (talk) 04:31, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
@Buffs: Thanks for the clariifcation, but I have already been given guidance of this at Wikipedia:Teahouse § Talk page ban by Beyond My Ken. Lmatt (talk) 05:05, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

───────────────────────── As a result of this conversation and a review of their recent edits, I have blocked Lmatt for disruptive editing for 72 hours. If this behavioral pattern resumes, their editing career may well come to an end quite soon. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:20, 16 September 2019 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merger discussion disrupted by Meatpuppetry[edit]

It started with editors attempt to organize response against merger, with one editor alerting another editor to "take an eye onto discussion" at User_talk:Peacemaker67#Turkish_Croatia, former quite assertive and demanding in "discussion"; then this later editor alerting third editor, emphatically asking third editor if they can send them (second) an email.
This exchange predictably resulted with involved antagonistic editors resorting to requesting assistance of like-minded people and campaigning outside English Wikipedia, namely by placing couple of inciting request at Croatian Wikipedia - two evident are instances of this behavior HERE and HERE (we can only presume what was going on beyond these pages (WP:STEALTH)) - to which few responded in attempt to give boost to their (systemic) biased POV by means of "voting" on the merger. Another dedicated (and up until that moment uninvolved) editor, myself included, tried to get their attention on this behavior, but we were dismissed with comments of explanations and justifications. And, not only that they voted more then once(!) each, they also, apparently, using WP:Single-purpose accounts as well. Obstructed discussion at: Talk:Bosanska_Krajina#Merger_discussion. As an aside, I would also like to examine the possibility of extending the page protection (current pg. protection expires in couple of hours), at least until the ensuing merger discussion and disruption of it has been resolved.--౪ Santa ౪99° 03:06, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Wikihounding, false accusations[edit]

Move along now, nothing to see here. KillerChihuahua 18:12, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

BigDwiki (talk · contribs)

BigDWiki's edits came to my attention after I added University of South Alabama to my Watchlist in May. This editor created a rather large "Criticisms" section, which few other articles about universities have.

While attempting to mediate an edit war BigDWiki was involved in with a dynamic IP editor, I noticed that most (if not all) of BigDWiki's criticism edits were in violation of WP:NOTNEWS, WP:WEIGHT, and WP:SYNTH, and began to prune them. For example, the "Publicizing Student Arrests" in the linked criticism section used phrases such as "The university was widely criticized for the arrests," while the only source was a single opinion piece criticizing the way in which the university published the arrest. Another section was listing crime statistics from over six years ago.

BigDWiki took the dynamic IP editor to the edit warring noticeboard, and weighed in saying that BigDWiki was in fact edit warring against two other editors, myself included. BigDWiki has been cautioned by User:Ponyo [113] and User:Bradv [114] for edit-warring.

Yesterday, BigDWiki began hounding me, !voting in the only two AFD's I'd created in the last week [115],[116]. I cautioned BigDWiki regarding the Wikihounding with a link to the policy, and added notes for the closer identifying those !votes as clear hounding. Following that, BigDWiki doubled-down and accused me of "evading blocks" and "improper AFD nominations" without providing evidence for either silly accusation.

I'm an admin, but per WP:INVOLVED I'd prefer others to weigh in. I've formally notified BigDWiki of this report. OhNoitsJamie Talk 13:35, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

I'll take a look. KillerChihuahua 13:36, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Puppy's View: BigDwIki is definitely in need of more careful reading and application of WP:NotNews and WP:NPOV. There's been a good bit of edit warring on the University of South Alabama article, mostly involving the contested information (rape, arson, assault articles from the news). BigDWiki isn't regularly involved on AFD, so his appearance there on the two articles Ohnoitsjamie placed there does show evidence of stalking, albeit that may have been fairly innocent in intent. However, that BigDwiki has ALSO attempted to character assassinate ONIJ there is hounding and battle; I will note that ONIJ may have aggravated things a bit by accusing BigDwiki of stalking on the AFD entries. BigDwiki, the correct response would have been to deny stalking with ill intent if such was the case, not to try to undermine ONIJ's allegations with counter accusations and bringing up irrelevant old blocks. I have warned BigDwiki on the afd; I will await his response here. KillerChihuahua 13:55, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
There's not really a reason to respond. User:Ohnoitsjamie is only trying to get his/her colleague admins to pile on support. He/she was engaged in an edit war, as was I. I have stopped editing the page in question. Voting on two AfD's this month is not uncommon as I have made two nominations to AfD in the past month as well.
Further, Killer if you "warned on the AfD", why would it be improper for me to respond to your warning there when that is where the warning was made? BigDwiki (talk) 14:11, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Because I said in plain English, "Take your arguments to WP:ANI. BigDwiki, if I see you arguing this anywhere else, I WILL block for hounding." Except now you've turned your argumentative attitude towards me, and have made THREE posts there continuing to argue, on EACH AFD (total of 6 edits after being told to keep your discussion here on ANI). Are you TRYING to get blocked? Do you think AFD is the correct venue for a discussion or argument about ANYTHING except the articles in question? Allow me to clue you in; it's for AFD discussion. THIS is where you should put all your vitriol and disagreement with both ONIJ and with myself. You're scattering your hostility and arguments on pages which are for other purposes. KillerChihuahua 14:18, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Then WHY didn't you make the SAME comments towards User:Ohnoitsjamie? You allowed his/her attacks to remain unopposed, but specifically told me to take mine elsewhere.BigDwiki (talk) 14:22, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Stay here BigDwiki. Don't go posting about this conflict anywhere else. Now, tell me, what do you need in order to settle down and no longer feel the need to fight? Jehochman Talk 14:24, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
I agree, the discussion should be kept here. But as long as these attacks keep coming, I'm going to respond. My contributions were reverted and exactly what I am being told to do/not do is being done by the other editor without any admonishment...probably because he/she holds a mop.BigDwiki (talk) 14:30, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
No. If an administrator tells you NOT to respond, do not respond. The correct action is to bring a dif of the attack against you here. Responding there is a very poor idea, and adds evidence that you have a battleground mentality. KillerChihuahua 14:46, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Because ONIJ had made one post, which was relevant, and had ALREADY brought the issue here. He's experienced enough to know not to continue there. He didn't need the instructions. You not only clearly needed them; you've ignored them repeatedly. It's like a small child versus an adult. You tell a child not to touch the hot stove. You assume the adult already knows. You not only didn't know (as evidenced by your post there attacking ONIJ with irrelevant block data and unsupported accusations), you are still not listening. Six more edits after I told you to stop. Does that seem intelligent to you? Do you think you're making a case for you being a level headed, helpful editor, or a case for you needing to be hit with a bigger stick before you'll behave? KillerChihuahua 14:29, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • After being told to cease arguing on the afds, BigDwiki thought it was better to make snide comments rather than come here with his accusations, as I instructed. I am not impressed with his understanding of BATTLE, or indeed his ability to restrain himself from attacking ONIJ even when directly and clearly told not to by an administrator (me). [117] and [118] both occurred after I stated "do not continue this here, but post on ANI" (paraphrased and shortened). KillerChihuahua 14:11, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
    Wow, he's still at it. KillerChihuahua 14:13, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) BigDwiki is refusing to discuss their edits on the talk page of the article, instead commenting on other editors and following them around to other pages. This is disruptive editing, and will result in a block. – bradv🍁 14:15, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
User:Ohnoitsjamie made many rerversions of my well-sourced contributions and refused to discuss his/her edits on the talk page. This is disruptive editing, and will result in a block.BigDwiki (talk) 14:26, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
@BigDwiki: Please provide specific diffs of the edits so we can evaluate them. —C.Fred (talk) 14:29, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Sure. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. BigDwiki (talk) 14:33, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
@BigDwiki: Other than the last one, all of those edits are very clearly following Wikipedia policy and are in no way disruptive. The last one, while it appears to involve editorial discretion, is still not disruptive. —C.Fred (talk) 14:37, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm not seeing a problem with the last one - the edit summary correctly advises BDW to take the desired edits to the talk page and gain consensus. KillerChihuahua 14:43, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
(edit conflict) How about you take that page off your watch list for 48 hours. If you want to go back and continue working on it, post your proposed changes to the talk page first and ask for feedback. Let's see who answers. Feel free to ping me with {{ping|Jehochman}} (just in case you didn't know how to use that, maybe you do), and I will try to mediate the discussion so that your views get heard. Be patient. Sometimes the working here is slow, but that's necessary when its a team effort. Jehochman Talk 14:31, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
BigDwiki, this is not the same thing at all. The WP:ONUS is on you to seek consensus for the material you want to add. – bradv🍁 14:32, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
The edit history of University of South Alabama is pretty straightforward. The "Criticisms" section was created solely by BigDWiki; several IP editors have objected to parts of it (hard to say how many IP editors, as at least one appears to be dynamic). I stepped in and sided with the IP editors on the grounds that much of the "Criticism" content violated the policies I enumerated above (NOTNEWS, WEIGHT, SYNTH). Here I suggested that BigDWiki seek consensus on the talk page, and here I suggested an RfC. A good argument could be made the none of the "Criticisms" section is appropriate, as I haven't been able to find any other precedents on articles about universities where we list crime incidents and lawsuits that haven't garnered national attention. OhNoitsJamie Talk 14:41, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
To assume good faith, these are more advanced Wikipedia content standards that many users don't yet understand. The first step is finding content that can be verified. If the user has done that, it's a good start. Jehochman Talk 14:54, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Questions for User:BigDwiki ; You made several accusations at AFD. Please provide difs of the following:
  1. (User:OhNoItsJamie) has a history of … evading blocks and
    Replace with your difs here
  2. (User:OhNoItsJamie) continues to make false allegations against editors
    Replace with your difs here
  3. (User:OhNoItsJamie) also has a history of improper AfD nominations
    Replace with your difs here

Thanks much - KillerChihuahua 15:57, 16 September 2019 (UTC)


  • NOTE: BigDwiki is now warring with me on the afd page. I had hatted the inappropriate argumentation there, with a link to here. See this and this. Really strongly leaning towards blocking now. He's doubling down on the warring on Afd, and ignoring the requests for information and explanation here. KillerChihuahua 16:26, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Absolute nonsense. You purposefully hatted only my rebuttle to the attack made against me. You specifically left the attack against me unhatted. When I edited to hat the entire thread, including both attacks, you started warring. Either leave the entire discussion hatted or unhatted, don't pick and choose what to hide. BigDwiki (talk) 16:30, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Now, Killer has edited the two AfDs to hide my comments and leave the attack against me visaible. I edited this to hide ALL comments, including the attack against me and the subsequent accusations I made, and he is reverting it. BigDwiki (talk) 16:27, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
I think a block would've been appropriate prior to the AfD warring, but it seems pretty slam-dunk appropriate now. OhNoitsJamie Talk 16:30, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Agreed. And the AfD votes should be removed as done in bad faith, rather than just hatted. – bradv🍁 16:31, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
I didn't hat his !vote, I only hatted his unsubstantiated and irrelevant accusations - and he moved ONIJ's relevant note to be also inside the hatted area - and then when I reverted, he reverted again, which I of course am ignoring. Another editor can take action on the Afds if they wish; I've seen enough to know that BDW is here to EW, argue, and wage war against any who disagree. He's failed also to provide requested difs of his several allegations against ONIJ, as well. KillerChihuahua 16:56, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

I have blocked BigDwiki; I will copy the requests for difs to his page and give him an opportunity to justify his accusations. KillerChihuahua 17:04, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

My mistake, we're NOT done. He's removed my block notice, which he has every right to do, but has ALSO removed my request to substantiate his accusations with difs. See this. I welcome input from others as to how to handle that. Is he effectively withdrawing his accusations? Is he flouting legitimate requests to support serious allegations he's made against another editor? Ignore? Indef until he decides to be reasonable? Something else? Please place your thoughts below, thank you! KillerChihuahua 17:14, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
KillerChihuahua, I think closing this was the right call. BigDwiki does not need to answer questions while they're blocked, except in the context of an appeal. – bradv🍁 17:20, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
If no one has a differing view, then, I'll reclose this in a few minutes - or if anyone else wants to just close as is, I have no objection. KillerChihuahua 17:25, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
I have no objections to closing. Hopefully the disruption will not resume in 48 hours. OhNoitsJamie Talk 17:57, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Not Sure If This Belongs Here.....[edit]

I have been having some edit conflicts with user User:KStrain2000 - the most recent issue being with List of programs broadcast by Family Channel" I put in a reference stating that Speechless was a Disney Show since User:KStrain2000 decided that it should be listed under the "Disney" section, which is under the "Former Programming" section in List of programs broadcast by Family Channel. This station aired Speechless after Family Channel decided to no longer air Disney Programming (see "Loss of Disney Channel programming rights and other changes" in the "History section of Family Channel - several references are given. Speechless did not start airing on Family Channel (nor was it even made) until after Family Channel ceased airing any Disney programming.

In the Wikipedia article for Speechless there is no refer3ence to Disney owning it, at all. I found a reference for the List of programs broadcast by Family Channel to state that Disney was owned by Disney; however, a little while after I did this, User:KStrain2000 reverted that edit, stating "Speechless doesn't need a reference because everyone already knows it's owned by them; those Nick animated shows weren't by Nickelodeon themselves and Strawberry Shortcake isn't a Family original".

I reverted the edit and fixed it so that the shows no longer aired under the "Animated Series" section for "Nickelodeon" in the "Former Programming" section; but the fact that User:KStrain2000 stated "Speechless doesn't need a reference because everyone already knows it's owned by them" is extremely rude; I didn't know they were owned by Disney since no reference (nor was it ever mentioned) showed that Disney bought rights to Speechless - that's why I found (and provided) a reference stating that Disney bought rights to it (Disney is listed in the fifth paragraph in the reference I provided - https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-features/speechless-tv-show-wheelchair-planet-episode-jj-disability-801320/).

Also, in another past edit User:KStrain2000 made (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_programs_broadcast_by_Family_Channel&diff=prev&oldid=909636189) involved the plot summary "Bro WTF is wrong with you?"

Two rude edit summaries; I know that's not exactly punishable but the most recent one - stating that "everyone already knows it's owned by Disney" is false - am I wrong to think that a reference shows that Speechless was bought by Disney? Like I said before; the reason I put the reference in was because Family Channel lost Disney programming rights before it aired Speechless. TheBlackKitty (talk) 14:04, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

I've left a reminder to be civil in edit summaries. Let me know or post here again if they don't take heed and attempt to be less combative and dismissive in their summaries. KillerChihuahua 14:38, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks; I will do so if anything else happens. TheBlackKitty (talk) 14:39, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Harassment from User:RichardWeiss[edit]

This guy's started showing up on my talk page, screeching like a howler monkey about a single edit I made to a random IP page. Nine years ago. I don't know who this is, nor do I remotely care. I do, however, have an issue with him throwing his feces all over my nice clean talk page. Could someone do me a solid and put a cork in him? HalfShadow 19:34, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Okay, let's unpick this.
This is silly, and should not have made it to AN/I. All parties involved need to chill, and go back to whatever they normally do here. Yes, RichardWeiss (talk · contribs) should pay better attention to time/dates of edits, and perhaps refamiliarise themselves with WP:SOCKPUPPET and the related policy. However, HalfShadow (talk · contribs) should probably stop referring to other people's talk page edits as "feces", and is encouraged to consider the responses they leave on people's talk pages a little more.
I have not dug into either editor's history any futher - they've both been around the block for long enough to consider themselves "old hands", and should really, really know better.
Seriously, folks - calm down. It's just an encyclopaedia.
Trouts all round, methinks. -- a consensus is queer oppression | argue | contribs 20:02, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Oh dear. Both of you go have a cuppa tea and try to be nice. Not impressed with either editor's behavior here. KillerChihuahua 20:10, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
He comes on to my page shrieking about something that happened quite literally a decade ago, like I'm supposed to scratch my chin, say "Oh yes, I remember that!", the camera does the swirly effect thing and then I narrate the event. What dimension is this guy from? HalfShadow 20:13, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Let's try this again. "He came on my page, referencing something I didn't recall. I told him 'I'm not sure what you're referring to, would you please give me a link or a dif?'" and he did, and I said "Oh, that was 10 years ago, did you realize that? Old news. I'm not sure what you're expecting from me now?" and he said "my error, I'm sorry!" and we were done.
Also, "shrieking... what dimension is this guy from?" both very snarky. May I suggest you take the time to read WP:CIVIL? KillerChihuahua 20:33, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
My guess is he was logged out, saw the notice for the first time without the date, and then came to you. That's the most benefiting of the doubt excuse I can make for it. Other edits seem sane. spryde | talk 20:35, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Agreed, that is how it looks to me, also. He also seems to be a bit confused about what the suspected sock tag is, and is not. He seems to have taken it very personally. I'm not sure what else HS did or didn't do at the time, but the tag alone is merely suspicion. KillerChihuahua 20:41, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Perhaps both move on and get busy building an encyclopedia. Wm335td (talk) 20:38, 16 September 2019 (UTC)


I think you should read HalfShadow"s user Page ... the guys has Benn blocked before for not being civil .. Boomerang Jena (talk) 23:22, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Jena Fi, what are you talking about? His userpage says nothing about blocking or civility or anyone named Benn or Ben. It hasn't been edited in 2½ years, so it's not a matter of the page being changed after your comment was made. Nyttend (talk) 23:43, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
I believe "benn" is a typo, "been" would make more sense. Blackmane (talk) 23:49, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
I meant the User talk page . and yes it's Blank .. he deletes everything! https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:HalfShadow&action=history and look at his Block log. Jena (talk) 23:55, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Ah, okay; I took it as a pot-calling-kettle-black statement ("he got someone else blocked for incivility, and now he's doing it"), and since the userpage didn't say anything of the sort, I was confused. HalfShadow has seven "justified" blocks (thirteen total, minus some that got overturned as inappropriate, one that was a pure accident, and some that changed block settings), of which four were related to personal attacks. Nyttend (talk) 23:58, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
(after edit conflict) Are you talking about HalfShadow's block log? He has a fairly extensive log, from 2009 and 2010, with ONE block last month (and FWIW, it was for harassment, but it's completely unrelated to this instance.) Many editors have difficulty learning the behavioral rules here; they come from other areas of the Internet where incivility and outright personal attacks are the usual way of handling even minor disputes. That HS had trouble in 09 and 10 is clear. That he's mended his ways is also clear. He overreacted to this situation, brought it here, was told to calm down and have a cuppa, and so far as I can tell hasn't escalated or pursued it. He's dropped it, and presumably is having the recommended cuppa somewhere calm and peaceful. Not seeing why you'd bring this up. This was over several hours ago. KillerChihuahua 00:01, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
While you were writing this, I was recounting the blocks and changing my comment. "Thirteen minus bad equals seven" is wrong. I was planning to change it to eight "justified" blocks (sixteen blocks total, minus three that got overturned as inappropriate, one that was a pure accident, and four that changed block settings). Nyttend (talk) 00:05, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
And so far as blanking is concerned - I find it annoying myself. Its still perfectly acceptable, and is specifically allowed per user talk page guidelines. We had huge Rfc's about it and everything. You can blank your talk page whenever you like. KillerChihuahua 00:03, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
KillerChihuahua's said it a good deal better than I could have. I don't like it one bit when people blank their talk pages (it's confusing and makes it hard to follow the history), but unless the page is up for deletion for some crazy reason, there's absolutely no reason that a non-blocked user may not blank his own talk page, so there's no reason to make an actual objection to the practice. Nyttend (talk) 00:09, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
This argument has no effect on the issue at hand. Make a separate report if you want to continue this argumentHeartGlow30797 (talk) 02:49, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
I would like to weigh in and I believe that this is not harassment. The person in question was very respectful, however he may be wrong. Him being wrong is not the point, harassment is not an issue present.HeartGlow30797 (talk) 02:49, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
Not sure what part of "urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems" this falls into, but a close of this is probably for the best. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 06:51, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

user pretending to be an admin, threatening[edit]

I edited a the Carnival Row page to include viewer reviews with the critics reviews because of a stark difference in critics and viewers.   I posted I disagreed, as the rule has a hypocritical double standard on opinions.  But also made a dyslexic post "can you be more hypocritical when I meant can IT be more hypocritical.  Another poster https://en.wikipedia.org/en/User_talk:The_Mirror_Cracked#message jumps in with a personal message and a threat on my IP user page pretending to be an admin twice (https://en.wikipedia.org/en/User_talk:96.31.177.52).  This user is pretending to be an admin to bully others to force agreement with their opinion. Threatened me, deleted the threat when called on it. And followed me to the rules discussion page to bully more when I tried to civilly discuss what I felt was a problem with critics as reliable sources. 96.31.177.52 (talk) 03:34, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

I twice warned the IP for making personal attacks. Once for this edit where they accused @Alex 21: of hypocrisy, which I believe falls under WP:NPA. The second warning was for this edit on my talk page, which is clearly intended to be a personal attack. At no point did I pretend to be an admin. The warnings I left on their talk page are two of the standard user warnings. I dispute 96.31.177.52's characterisation of my interactions with them as bullying, and I did not "follow" them to Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, I was the editor who alerted them about that page. I also dispute that the IP's edits were civil and encourage interested parties to read their Contributions (and mine, of course) The Mirror Cracked (talk) 03:41, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
96.31.17.52: The Mirror Cracked is not an admin, but I am. Mirror has not pretended to be an admin, nor have they violated any norms. They quickly admitted their own mistake in the matter. You, on the other hand, are needlessly personalizing and escalating what should be a simple content dispute. I highly recommend you simply drop it right now and move on, or you are likely to wind up blocked from editing. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:08, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
(edit conflict) @96.31.177.52: When you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page. TMC never pretended to be an admin. They never threatened you. They're not harassing you. They told you about the rules, and the possible consequences for breaking them. Never did they say "I'm an admin and I'm going to block you" or anything like that. I think it'd be best for you to take a walk to cool down a bit before you dig yourself deeper into a hole. - Frood (talk!) 04:31, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

"Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all ye lands."[edit]

Please look at Psalm 100, known as "Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all ye lands.", present version this, demanding that you (you!) revdel a copyright violation. Nothing happened in several hours.

The psalm is known in the King James Version, Wikisource, as "Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all ye lands."

Beginning in January 2018, Yoninah and I have improved coverage of the Psalms. She, knowing Hebrew, their original language, added the Hebrew text with its English translation, "A song for a thanksgiving offering. Shout to the Lord, all the earth.", per [119] - Yesterday, Elizium23 removed that as a copytight violation, with a fat tag for the article and a tag for Yoninah. When I removed the tag for the article, Elizium23 had another tag for me, and the request to revdel that I still see!!

We have now four threads, Yoninah, two on Elizium23 (sorry for the one I started, I had not noticed the other one, and the one Yoninah started has the numbers of all Psalms that have Hebrew text and translation, showing me how many are still missing). and my own.

We need to sort out:

  1. Is this translation of a biblical text a copyright violation?
  2. Even if yes, does it need a revdel?
  3. For the announced investigation: are 5 psalms five cases? (I'd say no.)
  4. How can we help our readers to the original language of the psalms and a translation? Leaving them alone with the King James Version - in old-fashioned English - doesn't help help them to understand the original meaning.
    1. Can we make a tranlation in Wikisource?
    2. Can we request permission from the publisher?
    3. Other ideas?
  5. How can we spare our readers the lengthy tags in article space? In general, not just here. The discredit the information. One line in article space, the rest on the article talk page should be enough, no?

Not an incident? May be, I am not familiar with ANI. I am most concerned about the tags in articles that are highly visible, and called by many other articles, see Der 100. Psalm. (So far: palms 1, 23, 42, 51 are also tagged) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:30, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

I, for one, am very confused. If we start with the premises that the bible's original text is not copyrighted, and likewise, the King James Version is in the public domain, then it would seem to me just fine. Similarly, if one follows the link in the copyright template, the chabad translation is quite different, if more literal. My hunch is that the tag is simply a bit of a mix-up, but I would be happy to hear others' thoughts. Cheers! Dumuzid (talk) 05:43, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
I don't know what exactly you mean by "just fine". The King James Version (KJV) is public domain, yes, but it often represents the original Hebrew badly, and it's also in an old-fashioned English. Just compare the two translations above. Should we inform our readers about that? I'd say yes. How, that is the question. Another example: Psalm 42: KJV has "As the hart panteth after the water brooks." The other translation - now removed - has: "For the conductor, a maskil of the sons of Korah. / As a hart cries longingly for rivulets of water". Note in both cases, that the author credit is missing in the KJV, on top of the language. Also: using KJV only supports a Christian bias. The original is Hebrew and Jewish. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:58, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
Ancient biblical texts are in the public domain. Translations, whether they are Jewish or Christian, which were published before 1924 are in the public domain, and there are plenty of them. More recent translations are presumed not to be in the public domain, unless there is good evidence to the contrary. Any distinctive quotation of a specific translation should be attributed to the translator, and should be brief if the translation is copyrighted. Original content published since 1924 and republished on Chabad.org is subject to the crystal clear copyright notice at the bottom of that web page. These are the basic principles that seem pretty clear to me, unless I am missing something. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:13, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
For example, the Jewish Publication Society of America Version of the Tanakh (Hebrew Scriptures) was published in 1917, is in the public domain, and is freely available online. It may not reflect the full range of modern scholarship but I would submit that no single translation meets that standard. It is always best to use fully free translations, unless there is a convincing need to quote non-free content instead. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:28, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
Fair use of modern religious texts is often quite generous (see [120], [121]). However, Chabad is pretty clearly copyrighted. But they seem amenable to letting their work be used in periodicals if you first contact them for permission ([122]). Emailing them could clarify the copyright status, the date of the particular translation, and to gain their explicit permission. Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 07:29, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
Unless their permission is in the form of a release under a free license, the choices remain fair use or deletion. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:29, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

User:KMeyer[edit]

KMeyer (talk · contribs)'s block expired at 05:20 and just 34 minutes later the user is making a WP:POINTy report of David Gerard at Wikipedia:General sanctions/Blockchain and cryptocurrencies despite the notice "Editors who log a notification here are also considered to be aware of the sanctions.". Despite TonyBallioni's offer/request KMeyer is clearly unwilling to "drop whatever fight you think you’re in and move on". Cabayi (talk) 09:34, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

  • Trying to work with others here but not as familiar with Wikipedia bureaucracy as the rest of y’all. No idea what most of these various WP:FOO jargon you keep bringing up are. Really not sure what needs (re-)litigating here. David’s arguments for categorizing a distributed file system as a cryptocurrency, to paraphrase, are not especially substantive and mostly just unsourced assertions. I’m not the only editor to find categorizing a file system as a cryptocurrency odd. Apologies for brevity, I’m on a mobile device. -KMeyer 10:29, 17 September 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by KMeyer (talkcontribs)

User:Swakutty - ongoing problems, especially WP:CIR and likely sockpuppetry[edit]

Swakutty is an ongoing problem with severe competency issues, disruptive editing and now, apparently, some sockpuppetry involvement. Begoon, Ravensfire and I have been attempting to get Swakutty on the straight and narrow but we've been unsuccessful and it's clear that it's time to solve the problem once and for all. Swakutty's edits have been problematic since he started editing in June 2019. He has been blocked for a week for copyright problems as the result of uploading images. An example of the issues that we've seen was when he uploaded File:Neelima Rani.jpg here as a non-free image. He then uploaded the same file at commons as a free file.[123] IIRC, a number of files were uploaded without source or licensing information and most files that he uploaded were oversize and had to be reduced to comply with WP:NFCC. This continued for quite some time, even after multiple warnings, most of which Swakutty has removed from his talk page.[124] In some cases he restored oversize images after they had been reduced. He has improved in this but, because he has been told that oversize files are not appropriate, he has now progressed to unnecessarily reducing the sizes of images that are already WP:NFCC compliant. Today's examples are File:Azhagu serial.jpg, File:Minnale serial.jpg and File:Naayagi tv serial.jpg. Of course, he doesn't bother tagging the files with {{Orphaned non-free revisions}}; somebody else has to do that.

Swakutty's major issue though is that of article creation. He typically creates unsourced articles with little or no content. See, for example, this revision of Pandavar Illam (TV series), which consists only of an infobox. After these are moved to draft space, he usually asks that they be reviewed without any attempt to improve them. Such was the case with Draft:Tamil Selvi. This was not actually created by Swakutty, it was created by LoggoL. I moved this to draft shortly after it was created and after some fixes it languished in draft for over a month until Swakutty decided to submit it for review without any attempt to improve the article. I reverted the request as it would clearly be a waste of reviewers' time and the draft sat there for another month until Swakutty submitted it again, still without any attempt to improve it. The first time he submitted it for review I left a note on his talk page explaining the futility of submitting it for review,[125] but this was obviously ignored. The second time that he submitted the article I revisited the issue.[126] He had also submitted Draft:Mr. and Mrs. Chinnathirai for review on both occasions,[127] The second time that he submitted Draft:Mr. and Mrs. Chinnathirai, he had added added a single url thinking this would resolve the problems with the article.[128] This is the current situation, where he thinks that adding urls, whether or not they are used as references, will fix referencing problems. As I wote in this edit summary, he's just not getting the hint. He doesn't seem to comprehend what he is being told, even when told multiple times. Just prior to that the draft was reviewed and rejected so he decided to copy and paste the draft to Mr. and Mrs. Chinnathirai, ignoring the reviewer's comments, both at the draft and on his talk page.[129][130] I then had to address that on his talk page.[131] This continues to be a problem to this day. It is now at the point where consensus between Begoon, Ravensfire and me is that something needs to be done. Ravensfire has suggested I think asking for a topic ban on creating new pages in main space (only in draft) and not allowing moves from Draft to Main space (must go through approval process) would be appropriate and a far better option than a block.[132] I was willing to go along with this until Begoon noted that there has been evidence of sockpuppetry after he had just reverted a whole bunch of IP sock edits making links from mainspace articles to Swakutty's drafts and removing the AFC tags from the top of the draft pages to try to make them look more like articles.[133] I won't speak for Begoon or Ravensfire but, given the continuing problems with Swakutty that don't seem to be any closer to resolution than they were in June, I believe that an indef block is the best option for Wikipedia at this point. --AussieLegend () 10:12, 17 September 2019 (UTC)