Template talk:Punctuation marks

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Bengali Punctuations[edit]

since there are other punctuation marks listed , e.g. Chinese Punctuation, and Bengali Bangla has distinct scrpts, so I propose a link to Bengali Punctuation orবাংলা বিরাম/যতি । — Preceding unsigned comment added by Briksho (talkcontribs) 21:06, 10 October 2013‎

prime marks, font[edit]

While the triple prime symbol shows correctly on my Android, the single and double primes are indistinguishable from the ASCII straight single and double quotation marks, even when I replace them in the wikicode by their Unicode values, x2032 and x2033 (′ and ″).[1] Is this a matter of the fonts my phone uses, or is it a Wikipedia problem?

References

--Thnidu (talk) 17:01, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

@Thnidu: I suspect that this a font issue rather than a code issue. I suggest that you experiment with various <font> markups until you find one that clearly distinguishes (like presumably the default one doesn't). But then you have to be aware that not all readers on all platforms will have that font if it is at all unusual so that 'what you see is not what they get' after font substitution. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 14:19, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Add lines to template to give Unicode code point and name?[edit]

I wonder if there would be a consensus in favour of adding a couple of extra lines to the template, to give the Unicode code point and name for the symbol? For example the pound sign is £, U+00A3, POUND SIGN. Comments? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 13:42, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

@John Maynard Friedman: Maybe? It might help to see a mocked up example to get an idea for how it would look. What about the templates that have alternate versions shown, like at Slash (punctuation)? –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 13:49, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
I suspect that I have fallen into the infobox/sidebar trap but let's see. If there is more interest, I will have a go to see how it looks, I don't want to spend time on it if the whole idea will be met with a chorus of disapproval. Thank you especially for pointing out that some marks that already have a second line. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 14:11, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
"the infobox/sidebar trap" is a nice observation. In this case, it looks like a combination: in top is infobox info, the list is sidebar (navigation). Not a problem IMO, I've read no objections re this over all these years. Having an infobox part (if we agree) implies that there can be more infobox data. Already variants are in there (Slash (punctuation)); the Unicode U+ code and name can be there too. Somehow I think there should be a limit to the number of characters (not dozens of space variants). -DePiep (talk) 10:32, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Facility to show/hide (collapse) sections needed[edit]

I have been working on the pound sign article and have been struck by the amount of irrelevant [to that article] information being displayed in the infobox: the space it takes up is wp:undue. It should be possible to collapse, for example, the whole block of punctuation characters in currency articles (and conversely). Where do I go to request this development? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 12:01, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Have I fallen into the infobox/sidebar trap again??? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 12:02, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Guess so... and so did the creators of the box. You are right in this sense: infobox should be separated from sidebar (navigation). Would allow more article info in the infobox. Then, different collapse rules apply (do not collapse infobox; sidebar does not show in mobile, and may be collapsible?). -DePiep (talk) 16:36, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Proposal: split into Infobox and Sidebar navbox[edit]

After this observations by John Maynard Friedman: I propose to split this template into a true Infobox (article summary) and a correct Sidebar (punctuation navigation). As it stands now, it is a mixture, introducing unwanted effects (for example, very long while most is not related to the article itself)

The new {{Infobox punctuation mark}} holds exactly the header block of this template: info related to the individual mark (=article). Template {{Punctuation marks/sandbox}} will be the new Sidebar navbox code (this template's live code), with top block removed and mostly unchanged from the current version. By class & format, it is a {{Sidebar}}.

When we agree, implementation requires each article to have an edit (splitting the template into two). After this, both templates can be improved as we think good - independently (for example: move the sidebar to below as regular navbox?, add image option to the infobox?, change name into Template:Sidebar ...).

demo (as of now: [1]) -DePiep (talk) 23:28, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Comments, opinions?
-DePiep (talk) 17:39, 12 November 2019 (UTC) (fixed & clarified things, -DePiep (talk) 22:36, 12 November 2019 (UTC))
Technical cleanup beforehand: I have added tracking Category:Pages using Infobox punctuation mark with unknown parameters, and parameter names like |mark=,, |name=Comma to replace unclear parameters |1, 2, caption=. Does not change the proposal. -DePiep (talk) 09:40, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support, obviously, from I have written in preceding sections above. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:28, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
    • Comment: consideration should be given to a new title (since it is about more than punctuation). I assume that the sections will be collapsed by default? BTW, "word dividers" should be in general typography, which should also contain "uncommon typography. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:28, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Everything reasonable can be done, later. My first concern is to split. Future names: see future, will be all right always this beng a wiki. -DePiep (talk) 22:42, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
OK, will move this one when splitting. -DePiep (talk) 08:59, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

YesY — I note consensus. I will make the split, report here, and then further edits can be made. -DePiep (talk) 20:15, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

 Done Current live templates:

{{Infobox punctuation mark}} (talk)
{{Sidebar punctuation marks}} (talk)
-DePiep (talk) 21:44, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Possible improvements[edit]

Now that the template is split, some obvious and useful improvements are waiting. Some might need discussion.

  1. Make sidebar collapsible using {{sidebar with collapsible lists}}
  2. Reform & replace into bottom navbox
  3. Remove all currency signs from this one (there iexists {{Currency symbols}})
  4. Sift through marks: do these all belong in here? Name & grouping is right?
  5. Check & cure overlap with {{Infobox grapheme}} (see ampersand)

I leave it to others to pichk up things (no need to wait for me). -DePiep (talk) 21:53, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Removed: currency symbols[edit]

I have removed from this Sidebar the "currency symbol" subsection [2]. Currency signs are not punctuation. Kept symbol link for "¤" as a see-also.

Complementary, {{Sidebar punctuation marks}} is removed from all currency sign articles (Category:Currency symbols (78)).

In currency sign articles (about a sign), and maybe currency articles (about a currency), exactly navbox {{Currency symbols}} should be added to the bottom. That navbox can be maintained well. ping John Maynard Friedman -DePiep (talk) 17:43, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

@DePiep:, I went through all the ones that used the old punctuation sidebar and all had the Currency symbols navbox. There are about as many again that didn't use the sidebar but I'm dubious about putting the infobox into them since they may require unicode support that not all readers have. (Is this really still true?) --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:28, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
I checked all currency articles that were listend in this sidebar. In some I had to add {{Currency symbols}} (bottom navbar). So now, wret te Sidebar, all currency signs are away from this Sidebar.
As for the infobox: {{Infobox punctuation mark}} does have the unicode option (since 30 minutes! see !) |unicode=, and |other_names=.
I meant that there may be readers whose browsers can't render all major Unicode symbols, not that we can't offer them. But time will take care of it, so I'll stop worrying :-) --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:49, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
However: since for example Pound sign is not a punctuation, we shold not use this infoboxc and find another one like "Infobox character". Don't know which one that would be. For now, {{Infobox punctuation mark}} can do the basic stuff in there I think. -DePiep (talk) 19:36, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I agree, I was just about to ask you if you were happy for me to copy that infobox to create a currency infobox. It will have just the symbol as at present but also a link to currency symbols. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:45, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

New infobox:currency sign[edit]

I have started work on a new template:infobox currency sign, which is a shameless copy of template:infobox punctuation mark. Doing this will allow future divergence as each becomes more customised to its target market. Advice and comments at template talk:infobox currency sign will be most welcome. As of 21 November 2019, it is not deployed anywhere yet. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:56, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Removal of symbols[edit]

I suggest to remove also the multiplication sign, plus, minus, plus-minus and minus plus, for the same reason: they are not punctuation signs, even for the syntax of mathematical formulas. D.Lazard (talk) 18:01, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Fine. Any more math symbols to look at? -DePiep (talk) 18:09, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
I think that we are misdirecting ourselves by the fact that the sidebar (which, IMO, should be a horizontal navbar) is called punctuation. We need a repository for all these obscure mathematical symbols and the currency symbols (if you don't know it is currency symbol, where do you start?). So if we were to change to name to Symbols (or Non-alphanumeric symbols for the purists), it would be valid and useful to keep these. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:42, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
If you change the name to "Symbols" or "non-alphabetic symbols" you must include a lot of mathematical symbols. You can find an (incomplete) list of these symbols at List of mathematical symbols. It is clear that they are too numerous for being listed in a navbox. However, one of them deserves to be mentioned here, as appearing as a true punctuation symbol, which is not used in formulas; that is (tombstone (typography) or Q.E.D. mark). D.Lazard (talk) 22:52, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
In that case, maybe it would be best if the navbar just had a pointer to that list rather than to wp:fork a copy of it (which is not allowed in any case). --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 23:08, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Not my intention to go thisa way. There are 10,000's of symbols in Unicode. Maybe we can add some groups to the See-also list (math symbols etc). -DePiep (talk) 07:27, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

New template:infobox symbol[edit]

In UnicodeU+212E ESTIMATED SIGN (HTML &#8494;)

I have created (well, ok, shamelessly copied {{Infobox currency sign}} created by DePiep and removed the currency-specific bits) a new {{Infobox symbol}} that can be used for non-alphanumeric signs and symbols that don't have a more appropriate infobox (such as we already have for punctuation and currency). Comments welcome at template talk:Infobox symbol. As 30 November, it is not yet in use anywhere but I have left a statement of intent to do so at talk:estimated sign and, unless anyone objects, will go ahead in the next few days. Other uses would require articles to host them. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 14:27, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

To improve: foreign language punctuation[edit]

Maybe we could expand the list with foreign language marks. See the Category:Punctuation (81) for suggestions. -DePiep (talk) 19:40, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, of course, and the change to navbar as proposed below makes it to introduce without worrying about disrupting articles where the template is used. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:45, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Proposal: change to footer Navbox[edit]

The sandbox page was moved to {{Punctuation marks/sandbox}} (Dec 2019)

I propose to change this Sidebar into a regular Navbox at page bottom, including a name change (page move). Reasoning: there is no need to have this one in top, it is cluttering. Also the list is very long (detailed). At the bottom, there is more space to present the marks. Improvements are still possible afterwards.

See {{Punctuation marks/sandbox}}. @Spitzak:. -DePiep (talk) 20:31, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

  • Support in principle. (In detail, I find the grey boxes visually disturbing and invite you to reconsider that, but again the principle is a good one because clutter created by the existing sidebar, where images are forced to be thumb|left forcing the text into an awkaward column down the middle, is a lot more disturbing). --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:43, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
I've made them lighter. I think we need them to make visual distinction (visual search, stress a diff between name and mark, do not mistake with prev/next in list when reading/glancing). -DePiep (talk) 20:46, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Better but I'd go lighter still, as light as you possibly can. I understand and accept your purpose (most obviously when dealing with with types of space). In the final analysis, it is a judgement call that someone – you – has to make, then it is what it is. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 21:05, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
"as light as you possibly can" = white ;-). For the reasons mentioned, all about "reading" the box (glancing is more what readers do), a distinction is helpful. More: There are three elements: the text/name link, the marks and the separator now a  · dot. The grey helps separating & organising (as the colon does). And since there are marks (not letters) involved, distinction is more important -- not reading sentences. When we leave the vertical table (Sidebar) for some horizontal list, separations is more important. The human eye misses the helpful table-structure. -DePiep (talk) 21:16, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Looks like what I was thinking of, but template:currency symbols may be a better design, with just the symbols showing. Whitespace can just be put in the (already existing) link to whitespace characters so you don't have to show them.Spitzak (talk) 21:23, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
My thoughts: 1. The currency symbols are not described (no text). Quite unhelpful except for familiar signs like dollar and euro. I was thinking about adding text there ;-) 2. Adding a link to the mark itself will cause or an underline to a 'drawing' (wikilink), or remove underline = unclear that it is a link. Both are drawbacks, now nicely in the textual wikilink. 3. I am very happy with the extra space we have in a bottom Navbox, using it for wider description. Let's not forget that we, interested editors, by now are very familiar with the punctuation marks. But a novice reader is helped with the texts. -DePiep (talk) 21:35, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose I find having it near the top aids in navigation in a way that a navbox at the bottom simply cannot replicate. —Locke Coletc 14:26, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
    • Comment A consensus to phase out the sidebar in favour of the navbox has already been established, so this is a request to re-open the debate. As observed above, the huge sidebar is very disruptive in most articles, because it takes up so much space. Any other templates get stacked below it and images have to go the right (causing an ugly page design) or be stacked well away from the sections they are intended to illustrate. That is why it has become deprecated. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:27, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
      • Where was consensus established? —Locke Coletc 17:00, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
See #Proposal:_split_into_Infobox_and_Sidebar_navbox, Nov 2019. -DePiep (talk) 17:24, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, I read that and this, and it looks like somehow this template was orphaned for the most part. What is WP:TFD for? —Locke Coletc 17:57, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
If is is about content, we try to solve it at the talkpage. Once outside of content (deletion, disputed move), TfD comes into play. Problem with TfD is that uninvolved editors (uninvolved in its maintenance, topic, issue) come by and start telling others what to do. HTH -DePiep (talk) 18:04, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
Yes, but considering this template is now effectively orphaned from article-space, you might as well have deleted it. I only noticed what was going on because someone was edit warring to remove it from Apostrophe (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). A change like this really should have involved a wider audience... —Locke Coletc 18:30, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
The 'somebody edit warring' was you. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 23:20, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
That wider "audience"(?) be involved topical editors then, not drive-by XfD!voters. What is your proposal? -DePiep (talk) 18:34, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
The fact that you disparage your fellow editors by calling them "drive by" is a pretty good indicator of what's wrong with your line of thinking. Maybe lay off the personal attacks? Other peoples opinions don't have to follow whatever your thinking is, that's why conversations happen. —Locke Coletc 20:57, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
You are declaring a personal attack without good reason, is it too close to home? This discussion happened four months ago, where were you then? The infoboxes have been replaced as the opportunity arose, on a wide variety of punctuation, typography and currency. Again, why has it taken you until now to question what was being done, as you would were you actively interested in the topic? You are entirely free to reopen the question but you really need a more convincing argument than wp:becauseilikeit. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 23:16, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment User:John Maynard Friedman, do you want any updates to the sandbox? Shall I reinstate the color options for demonstrating (as in #Grey scale demos)? It is OK with me if you reorder and group the marks in the sandbox if you want to. -DePiep (talk) 00:07, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Grey scale demos[edit]

See {{Punctuation marks/testcases}}: it has various grey tints. note: the color is the RGB "e6e6e6" triplet, goes from black (00 ×3) to white (ff ×3). So "cccccc" is darker than "dddddd". Take care, do not be misguided by environment & situation. Try to judge per single color view. -DePiep (talk) 22:21, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Visual effect is also hardware dependent (e.g., screen settings & effects). So a color may be more light here with me than there with you. -DePiep (talk) 22:49, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
  • eeeeee is my preference. I thought it would be ffffff but I was wrong. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:40, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
oooops made a mistake, "eee" is not "eeeeee". Pause judgement. Will correct tomorrow. -DePiep (talk) 22:52, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
I suspect that very few people would have spotted it! But time to vote again:
  • In order of preference then: eee, eeeeee, e8e8e8 (all look pretty similar), ffffff. (F0 E6 8C has promise but this version is too lurid, how about a pale primrose? Black on yellow might well be clearer than on grey). [This is beginning to feel like a visit to the optometrist]. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 23:39, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
New names, now bleu again: {{Punctuation marks/sandbox}}, {{Punctuation marks/testcases}} -DePiep (talk) 17:13, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
Looks like the tst options (color choice) is broken. Ping me if you want to use this. -DePiep (talk) 17:21, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
(Discussion moved to Template talk:Navbox punctuation) --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 13:59, 2 April 2020 (UTC)