Talk:Ottoman Empire

Former good articleOttoman Empire was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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August 7, 2007Good article reassessmentDelisted
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Current status: Delisted good article

Punishment and reparations[edit]

The supporters of the "Ottoman Caliphate" should be punished for the enslavement of Christian people, genocides and constant warfare against the followers of Christ.

The "House of Osman" are guilty of heinous crimes such as rape and murder and must be brought to justice and not advertised as a historical world power...

Hail Chirst...

And God Damn the Ottoman Empire. Fjgdh5 (talk) 18:09, 25 February 2019 (UTC)\Fjgdh5 (talk)\~~

Today part of section[edit]

Hello to all fellow editors. I checked over different empires on wikipedia, many have today part of sections. Can we please reach a consensus on this? Austria Hungary, Kingdom of Armenia, Angevin Empire, Austrian Empire, Ashanti Empire, Aztec empire, Balhae, Kingdom of Benin, Empire of Brazil and more have this, I just looked at these empires, from a list, these were just from A to B. So I can say that dozens more have a today part of section in the infobox. Can we please do the same on this basis? There cannot be any reason not to if it is like this for many other empires. Thank you. Georgepodros (talk) 14:43, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

I haven't really seen discussion in WP:RS. Just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean there aren't any such sources - can you tell us what you had in mind? My concern is that adding such a section would overburden this article. If we were to do it would we ascribe the legacy of the Ottoman Empire to Turkey? Arabs, Armenians, Greeks, Bulgarians on the right wing or nationalist end of the spectrum have also rejected a "common shared past". This is something they had in common with right wing nationalists in Turkey. Thus I have seen very little coherent discussion of this in sources. What we have are mostly "artificial national histories" harkening back to prehistoric times. The issue of Ottoman continuity is, as far as I know, not something scholars have reached an agreement on, and I am not keen on repeating the Turkish nationalist POV about this (which overlaps nicely with other nationalist POVs except for the points where they come into conflict with another). If you have some sources in mind, we would have to see them. Seraphim System (talk) 15:36, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
The last thing I am is a Turkish nationalist. I am Greek. I moved to Turkey as a programmer in the 90s. I simply want this edit because it is very confusing to most when they see what the empire was made up of, these successor states, almost none exist today. So many empires which had far worse nationalistic problems (austria, kingdom of armenia, etc) have a today part of section, most likely because the successor states almost dont exist at all and to understand which lands these empires formed, it is more beneficial to add this section to the infobox. It can be an option "show" where you click on it to see, so only curious people can see it if you are scared of any nationalistic nonsense. I just would like to know myself too what countries really formed the empire. even lands like moravia and a very small part of uganda (conquered by mehmet ali) were de facto under control of the ottoman state. So what do you think in this regards Sir? Georgepodros (talk) 20:10, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
This idea has been discussed before and it was decided not to include it. This is because 1. it does not offer the reader any particularly useful information, and 2. it will be endlessly fought over in edit wars to determine what should and shouldn't be included. It isn't useful to the reader, and in fact can be misleading, to see Uganda or Russia or some other country as having once been part of the Ottoman empire when Ottoman territory only ever covered a small part of the modern state's borders (and as is the case many of these instances, when Ottoman control in these regions was very loose and/or ephemeral). I don't see it as a useful addition and would be opposed to its inclusion. A map is more useful for giving readers a sense of where the borders of the empire used to be. Chamboz (talk) 20:27, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
There used to be such a section (heavily fought over), but it was removed in 2016 after thorough discussions in this article's talk page and in the "Infobox former country" template talk page. --T*U (talk) 20:29, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
I will defer to Chamboz and T*U on this, the explanations given above sound reasonable.Seraphim System (talk) 21:07, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Very well. I am also a little sceptical about the provisional government part. The empire existed right until the declaration of the republic and the GNAT was considered illegal by the Ottoman State. The sultanate was abolished in 1922 but the state itself was still the Ottoman State. I hope we can reach an agreement to put the Republic of Turkey as the successor state. I can find the proper sources if you wish. [User:Georgepodros|Georgepodros]] (talk) 10:53, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
Turkey is not the successor state. That is it one of the successor states is fairly trivial. I would follow Britannica on this: it was replaced by the Turkish Republic and various successor states in southeastern Europe and the Middle East. There are some isolated articles trying to establish continuity between the present and Neo-Ottomanism, but I don't think these are majority views yet. Given how slowly things move in Ottoman studies, it could be a while.Seraphim System (talk) 14:46, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
Im not claiming Turkey is a successor state, I am saying it is one of them. The GNAT is a rival government during the last years of the Ottoman Empire while the Republic is on of the successor states, as should be mentioned in the infobox. What do you think? Can we or can we not? Georgepodros (talk) 16:22, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

───────────────── I am concerned by what other editors have said here about the article history about the possible instability that it would cause relative to the benefits of adding it. That Turkey is a successor state is straigtforward, but naming and sourcing the others is not going to be straigtforward. For example, would we include Kuwait? And when listing states in Eastern Europe would we use their names at the time of the dissolution, or their current names? Would the successor state be Mandatory Palestine or Israel? Mesopotamia or Iraq? Seraphim System (talk) 16:47, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Seraphim System: Again Georgepodros is talking about the contents of the infobox, where there already is a "predecessor/successor" section. It is quite clear that what is meant, is the immediate successor, so definitely no Kuwait! It also means no Israel, and not even Mandatory Palestine, since the direct succesor in that area would be Occupied Enemy Territory Administration, as stated. As I understand Georgepodros, their question is if the Government of the Grand National Assembly should be seen as the immediate successor of OE with Turkey as a next-step succesor (as it now is presented), or if it should be seen as a rival government, in which case Turkey could be seen as the direect succesor of OE. --T*U (talk) 22:02, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
In that case, I think due to the particular needs of this article, maybe we should skip it. I don't think telling readers that the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration was a successor of the OE is going to be helpful. Seraphim System (talk) 22:22, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
All I am saying my fellow editor friends is that the GNAT was not a successor but the rival government of the Ottoman government during the independence war. So yes no kuwait, no israel, they did not exist following the dissolution of the empire. The GNAT or provisional government did not directly succeed the ottoman state, which officially ceased to exist only following the declaration of the republic in october 29 1923. the sultanate being abolished is in no way regarded as the end of the Ottoman State by most historians. May we address this concern? I am no position to argue for the inclusion of all states which exist today which possess land once a part of the empire. I am saying the the provisional government is not the direct successor to the Ottoman state. Georgepodros (talk) 14:18, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Just saying: the notion of a "successor state" is irrelevant here. The Empire was broken up, and a whole bunch of new things started. In contrast, in 1867, the British Territories in North America became the "Dominion of Canada". That is a successor state. Or Russia became the USSR 1917-22. But the dissolution and fragmentation of an empire is not best described as "succession". Ben (talk) 23:27, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Name of the Empire, Rum?[edit]

Is see that one of the editors had added that the Inhabitants and Islamic world called the the Empire ‘’Rum’’ (Roman), which is simpely not true. Sultan Mehmed the second claimed succesion to the Roman Empire after conquering Constantinople and claimed the title of Ceaser (he was the only Sultan that claimed that title). But they didn’t call the Empire itself ‘’Roman’’ or ‘’Rum’’. And definitely not during the 19th and early 20th century. Parts of the Empire were however called different like the Pontus, Constantinople etc... And the term Rum was mostly used during the Seljuk era and Anatolia. Ottomanwarrior12991923 (talk) 14:14, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

If you're referring to the "Name" section, then I don't think you understood what the article says. All your complaints are about things that the article doesn't actually claim. It claims that the urban Turkish-speaking inhabitants of the empire were often called Rumi during the early modern period, not that the empire itself was referred to by that name. Chamboz (talk) 16:41, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
Since the inhabitants of the Byzantine Empire called themselves Roman, and their state was known as Rome, then it was simply country of Roman, something like China as country of Chinese people and Iran as country of Iranian people. It was simply a country, not an empire like the early days of the empire. So the Ottomans only conquered Rome, not an empire, but just another country like China or India and due to this, they were the Romans now. I provided good sources, one of them is in Persian and contains historical texts about the empire. I also should add the empire was called Lumi in Chinese language and after adoption of name Turkey for the new republic, the name of the Turkish language in Persian changed to "Roman Turkic" and it was common name for it until 30s or 40s, but not anymore. Aryzad (talk) 17:35, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

I mean the earlier edit that was done which claimed that the inhabitants called it Rum. I do know that Anatolia at those times was known by that name, but not the whole empire/all of its inhabitants/population. Thats what I mean Ottomanwarrior12991923 (talk) 17:37, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Partly true. Egyptians were Egyptian and Iraqis were Iraqi, but they were part of the Empire of Rum after all. In the same way they were part of the Empire of Rome centuries earlier. Even you look deeper, you see that's why the Muslims called Anatolia Rum in the first place. Because it was part of the Empire of Romans. Aryzad (talk) 18:29, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Aryzad, you tried to add the descriptor "historically known to it's inhabitants and the Islamic world as Rome (Rûm)" to the very first line of the article. This is incorrect. "Rum" was the name of a geographic region within the Ottoman Empire, not the name of the empire itself. If you want to pursue this for some reason, you should explain what your cited sources specifically say, preferably with quotes. Chamboz (talk) 16:47, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Hi. I added it to the first line because obviously it's more important than what the western European called them. Why it's even needed to add what western European called them to the first line? I cant see empire's Hindi name or Chinese name? And for Rum. The sultan of the Ottoman Empire was officially King of Rum, and yes it was a region, but Rome was a region in the Roman Empire too, this is how the empires work after all. For the source, I added an English source which is a good source, and the Persian source (which letter of a Safavid ruler to the Ottoman sultan about their wars and he uses the word Rum few times) can be removed. Aryzad (talk) 18:05, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
Your English source didn't have a page number. Could you quote what, specifically, supports your position from that source? And the problem with the Persian source was not that it wasn't in English, but that it was a primary source. You can't use primary sources for this kind of claim, that would constitute original research. You need to show that your position is supported by modern academic scholars - and I can assure you that it is not. Being ruler of "Rum" was one of the Ottomans' many, many titles, but by no means was it the primary name of the entire empire. Chamboz (talk) 18:48, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
The link of English source opens page 29 of the book.
No, you are wrong. Ruler of Rum wasn't just a title of the sultan. It was "the title" of sultan. As I explained to Ottomanwarrior12991923, late Byzantine wasn't the Roman Empire of first century. It was a country. Like China. In Ottoman and Muslim view, only the ruling dynasty of the country was changed. However, it doesn't even matters. I said it was "known" as Rum, it's not important what was the official name of the empire. Aryzad (talk) 19:23, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
What matters is how you are able to support your position with reference to academic literature. The book you cited doesn't support your claim. On page 29 it simply states that "For the Ottomans, the term [Rum] was used to refer to, among other meanings, the country that they inhabited, Memleket-i Rum (the country of Rum)." This fits very well with what Ottomanwarrior12991923 and I have been saying; Rum was a geographic region within the Ottoman Empire. One more closely tied to Ottoman identity than other regions insofar as it was at the core of the empire, but nevertheless not the name of the empire as a whole. The source that you've cited simply doesn't claim otherwise. Chamboz (talk) 20:51, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
Look my friend, I never said it was the official name of the empire. I said it was known as Rum among Muslims. And the source supports this very well. It contains Timurid view, Muslim view, Iranian view and Mughal view. What else is needed? Aryzad (talk) 21:33, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
It doesn't contain those things. The author cites individual instances of the Ottomans being referred to by those terms by individual writers from those states. To quote the page again: "Nizameddin Şami (fl. 1392), who accompanied Timur in his military campaigns, referred to the Ottomans as Rumiyan, “the heirs of the Romans,” and to the Ottoman ruler as the 'Sultan-ı Rum.'" What this means is that one Timurid writer, in one instance, referred to the Ottomans and the Ottoman ruler by these names. That's all well and good, and maybe these individual instances are representative of a wider phenomenon, but the point is that the author isn't claiming that that's the case. She doesn't say that this was actually the most common or normal way of referring to the Ottomans, that's your own extrapolation, and you can't extrapolate when citing things for Wikipedia. What you need is an author who actually does make a direct claim supporting your position. You're trying to use this author's evidence to support a claim that the author herself did not make. That's not how Wikipedia is supposed to work. Chamboz (talk) 21:49, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
You cited some good points, But I think being called this way by some medieval sources is enough. Aryzad (talk) 22:08, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
I get that, but what I'm saying is that as far as Wikipedia is concerned, it doesn't matter what you (or I) think. Looking at the original sources and coming to a determination based on them is called original research, and you can't make additions to Wikipedia on the basis of original research. In order to be able to add a claim to the article, you need to be able to cite a reliable secondary source that directly makes that claim. Chamboz (talk) 22:13, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
  1. Both sources lack page numbers.
  2. First source is outdated and fails WP:RS
  3. Both sources fail WP:VER
  4. Content added violates WP:OR
So how exactly did this stuff end up in the article? - LouisAragon (talk) 16:29, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
Sources are very clear. Just click on the links. The source says: "The Ottoman Empire is designated by all the of the East at this present time as the Roman Empire." Aryzad (talk) 20:44, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

"Absolute monarchy & Caliphate"[edit]

These changes I made were reverted by @Vif12vf:. The caliphal position of the sultans continued during the constitutional monarchy. Moreover, an Ottoman sultan officially gained this title for the first time in 1517. I tried to fix the wrong info through the changes I made. - Aybeg (talk) 07:12, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

To Aybeg: You need to bring reliable sources to support your changes. I recommend that you bring them to this talk page first for discussion. Zerotalk 07:48, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Common vs Official language of Ottoman Empire[edit]

  • Titley (1983) The ref doesn't cite page number. But I am not very certain that the Source is RS in context, as it seems that the topic of the book is not language in O.E
  • Wastl-Walter (2011)-->Claims that Persian was adopted by Ottoman Empire as official language of the Empire for some time.

So, the infobox is somewhat misleading as it dichotomizes the Ottoman Empire in two eras (before and after 17th century) and also states that Persian was a common language. Neither of these can be found in the references. The main body of the article though sets the record clear. Cinadon36 06:33, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

I am not sure you would find any source stating any language as "common language".
  • Learning to Read in the Late Ottoman Empire and the Early Turkish Republic, B. Fortna, page 50;"Although in the late Ottoman period Persian was taught in the state schools...."
  • Persian Historiography and Geography, Bertold Spuler, page 68, "On the whole, the circumstance in Turkey took a similar course: in Anatolia, the Persian language had played a significant role as the carrier of civilization.[..]..where it was at time, to some extent, the language of diplomacy...However Persian maintained its position also during the early Ottoman period in the composition of histories and even Sultan Salim I, a bitter enemy of Iran and the Shi'ites, wrote poetry in Persian. Besides some poetical adaptations, the most important historiographical works are: Idris Bidlisi's flowery "Hasht Bihist", or Seven Paradises, begun in 1502 by the request of Sultan Bayazid II and covering the first eight Ottoman rulers.."
  • Picturing History at the Ottoman Court, Emine Fetvacı, page 31, "Persian literature, and belles-lettres in particular, were part of the curriculum: a Persian dictionary, a manual on prose composition; and Sa'dis "Gulistan", on of the classics of Persian poetry, were borrowed. All these title would be appropriate in the religious and cultural eudcation of the newly converted young men.
  • Persian Historiography: History of Persian Literature A, Volume 10, edited by Ehsan Yarshater, Charles Melville, page 437;"...Persian held a privileged place in Ottoman letters. Persian historical literature was first patronized during the reign of Mehmed II and continued unabated until the end of the 16th century.
I would say Persian was used for diplomacy, poetry, historiographical works, literary works and up to the late Ottoman period taught in state schools. It appears Persian was more than common throughout the Ottoman Empire. --Kansas Bear (talk) 07:47, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
@Kansas Bear: it seems we agree on the facts and that is really important. The use of Persian lang was certainly common among literate people. But, given that literate rate was abysmal low in early Ottoman Empire, (per article: about 2–3% until the early 19th century and just about 15% at the end of the 19th century), it would seems that it the claim that Persian was "common" among Turks or the population of O.E is an overstatement. At least, no source claims that the use of persian was widespread among the vast majority. So it looks like a synthesis to me. Nevertheless, thanks for your input and your sources. Cheers. Cinadon36 12:59, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
I adjusted the infobox per the given sources. - LouisAragon (talk) 22:46, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
@LouisAragon: certainly your edit is an improvement but the problem still exist as Persian is listed as common language, which was not. Cinadon36 10:08, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
The sources demonstrate that it was more than commonly used within the Ottoman Empire. - LouisAragon (talk) 11:04, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
Well, that 's not my understanding. The sources demonstrate that it was used by the elite. No source presented in this discussion quantifies the use use of Persian language in Ottoman Empire.(not watching, please {{ping}})Cinadon36 11:29, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
@Cinadon36: What do you mean by "common"? Aryzad (talk) 13:43, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
@Aryzad: By common I understand that something is mainstream and it is relevant to an important portion of the population. There is no specific number to define when something is common or not, but I think that 3-4% is not what we have in mind when we using the word "common". Cinadon36 19:25, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
@Cinadon36: No, this is not how it works. In this situation, we cannot find a common language for the Ottoman Empire, and almost the rest of the empires. Probably, only Greek and Arabic can be called "common" in the Ottoman Empire. And then we also have to remove Ottoman Turkish too, because by this definition, it was even less "common" than Persian. We also have to remove Latin from the Roman Empire, Greek from the Seleucid Empire, Old Persian from the Achaemenid Empire and even English from the British Empire. It wasn't common in the British Raj and most of the British colonies after all. Aryzad (talk) 20:06, 26 August 2019 (UTC)